Hitherto Unknown Secrets !

Karna failed in Swayamvar . HE failed to even string the bow .
Surya counters  Radha’s son is not KARNA but brother of Karna
“And that bow which Rukma, Sunitha, Vakra, Radha’s son, Duryodhana, Salya, and many other kings accomplished in the science and practice of arms, could not even with great exertion, string”
Views of Prof Pandurangi
HOD Sanskrit  Bangalore University Rashtrapati awardee , MAHAMAHOPADHYAYA Tirupati Sanskrit University
“First Shishupala tried and failed. Then, Jarasandha, Shalya tried and failed. In the case of Karna a ticklish point is raised. According to North India recession of Mahabharatha Draupadi remarked that “Naham Variyam Sutham” I do not like to marry a charioteer. On the other hand when Arjuna asks Dhristadyumna whether a Brahmana can participate in the svayamwara contest, Dhristadyumna replies that “Brahmano Vatha Rajanyo Vaishyo va shudra aeva va?” Whetehr one is Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya or Shudra if he can wield the bow and hit the mark, I shall give my sister. From this it is clear that Karna lost the chance by his incapacity bit not on the ground of his caste. The North Indian version seems to be interpolation.
…………..end of extract ……………….
C Rajagopalachary view 
Sisupala, Jarasandha, Salya, and Duryodhana were among these unsuccessful aspirants. When Karna came forward, all the assemblage expected that he would be successful but he failed by just a hair’s breadth and the string slid back flashing and the mighty bow jumped out of his hands like a thing of life.
Vivekananda View
Now, there came kings and princes from different parts of India, all anxious to win the hand of the princess, and one after another they tried their skill, and every one of them failed to hit the mark.When all those princes failed in hitting the mark, then the son of King Drupada rose up in the midst of the court and said: “The Kshatriya, the king caste has failed; now the contest is open to the other castes. Let a Brahmana, even a Shudra, take part in it; whosoever hits the mark, marries Draupadi.” Among the Brahmanas were seated the five Pandava brothers. Arjuna, the third brother, was the hero of the bow. He lifted the bow in his hand, strung it without any effort, and drawing it, sent the arrow right through the wheel and hit the eye of the fish. 
Then there was great jubilation. Draupadi, the princess, approached Arjuna and threw the beautiful garland of flowers over his head
 

Comments on: "Superiority of Arjun vis-a-vis Karna – A Debate" (746)

  1. Guruji this surya was such a stupid boy!! Why were u even replying to him!!

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  2. Neeraj has exhibited a good skill of defamation , when the statements are not based on facts , it is known as chidranveshana !
    okay lets tackle his allegation on ARjuna one by one ,

    Neeraj quotes ”
    Jai Hari
    For those who think that Arjuna was a knight in shining armour here are some thoughts for you.
    Arjuna was great but not flawless. Below is a list of his misadventures
    .

    1. Has extra knowledge of vyoohas and training from Indra and fails to pass on knowledge to brothers and sons. Desire to be the best more important then benefit to brothers and sons
    ( bhima probably being superior didn’t need it but Yudhishthira and others did ).

    Ans . This is self assumption , all the warriors know the vyuhas very well , they are taught . This Vyuha was also known by Yudhisthir and others , the fact is JAYADRATH had stopped them at the entrance . Vyuha as a formation is no strange thing to be beyond comprehension . But If you read carefully , DRONA had put a encanted the vyuha with MANTRA which Drona had taught him to disenchant . The other warriors were not Taught this . mantras are not shared with others , They are learnt from guru . Acharya DRONA did not give it to others itself shows , it was meant to be a secret .
    Sharing does not give ability to break a vyuha , its the learning fom GURU that gives ability , These are basic , SImilarly KRISHNA had taught this to ABHIMANYU , and others pandavas , said as he opens the vyuha , they would follow and disarray the army or formation [ this itself is proof the formation of vyuha is not important but disenchantment is ]
    your comment here is irrelevant laced with ignorance ….the more you speak , the more it becomes apparent ….

    2. Kept the best charioteer Sri Krishna for his own purpose. The brave but inexperienced Abhimanyu definitely needed Krishna more to save himself from chakravyooha.

    Ans .. Its a again a folly to think SRIKRISHNA as Charioteer , SrIKRISHNA was kshatriya and not an available charioteer for PANDAVAS or army . So he could be passed around each for PANDAVAS and sons . SRIKRISHNA chose on his own to guide ARJUN . HE is independent , PANDAVAS never commanded HIM and no one ever could command HIM . SO blaming ARJUN shows a crippled mind , which thinks of SRIKRISHNA as paid driver …. a heinous sin .

    3. When challenged left Yudhishthira and the others alone to face the chakravyooha. Personal ego before teamwork and brotherly love.
    Ans … SRIKRISHNA had taken away ARJUN as also kaurava army was deluding ARJUN from Battlefield and then Chakravyuha was setup . SO teamwork brotherly love do not lapply as COMMANDER in chief was still DHRISTADHYUMNA and team work was his job and not ARJUN ,. ARJUN played to the situation , in a war , one does not leave a impending challenge and look around for brotherly LOVE especially when each brother is capable of vanquishing earth , IT is called as extreme confidence on team and its capabilties ……
    again a display of poor knowledge of analysis of war …..and yet a feeling of intelligent remark ……

    4. Receiving news of Abhimanyus death instead of accepting responsibility starts blaming Jayadratha who was not even close to Abhimanyu when he died. Being in the opposite army its but obvious Jayadratha would do something against the Pandavas. But he did not kill Abhimanyu its Drona who was incharge of the chakravyooha and Dushasanas son who killed him

    Ans….. Responsibility acceptance is childish assumption ,,,, BHEEMSEN was present so ARJUN need not have bothered this situation ,,,, [ ONE does not become proactive in solving a situation in a company when BOSS [ asumedly a senior and better equipped person ] is present , such an act is commented upon as acting oversmart ….]
    BUt the fact that JAYADRATH stopped them using his boon is indeed the real factor of DEATH of ABHIMANYU ..
    Nobody has priori knowledge what boon one might have got in the rear yard of their palace ….
    Had JAYARATH npt used his BOON , as vyuha was destroyed by ABHIMANYU the army would have been blown away pandavas like dried leaves in the storm .
    SO discounting the cruelty of KAURAVAS [ especially karna’s charlatan DHARMA pravartan ] JAYADRATH was targeted .

    5. Instead of opposing Yudhishthira while he was gambling he is silently watching his wife insulted makes big speeches about how he will kill Karna. Personal vendetta more important than world peace. He did slacken on the first day but that was because of relatives. He did not know that Karna too was a relative. This means he wont kill his near and dear ones but killing a person who is not dear to him is more important than peace.

    ANS … Again a illogical statement owing to poor reading and understanding …. the slackening on the first day was not due to relatives , it was even though relatives are killed , what would be left and what use of such leftover KINGDOM , even in VISHADA ARJUN has not slackened to spare relatives but on the thoughts of outcome ,[ seems very baiscs of GEETA and its start has not gone to head , any layman would understand these , but your extreme zealousness to maligh ARJUN vis a vis KARNA has clouded your reasoning ]
    As for opposing Yudhishthir and watching DRAUPADI insulted , There were plethora of GREATS who have done this , You are saying all these knew less than your silly small brain to figure out whether to oppose or not , If they have not then it muist be definitely of greater importance , else what you could figure [ as you yourrself claim not to be a scholar ] why scholars could not figure …. SO ARJUN was definitely right in his behaviour ,

    6. Feeling happy when Eklavyas thumb gets cut. Whether Eklavya was good or evil Arjunas envy is definitely a black mark on his character.

    ANs… There is no proof that ARJUNA had envy , HE had acknowledged the remarkable display of eklavya and and seeing DRONA as guru , HE questioned the authenticity of DRONAs promise that HE would make him GREATEST archer , infact He has acknowledged EKLAVYA by questioning DRONA s commitment , a mark of great MAN …

    7. Is so arrogant that time and again has to be humbled by Sri Krishna.and Shiva I understand even Hanumanji had humbled Arjuna on one occasion.

    ANs .. Arrogance is wrong word ,…. SHIVA was in disguise , ARJUNA like any other superior warrior considered himslef best … [ considering oneself as best when posesed of qualities as such is no arrogance , underplaying is no modesty ] …
    BUT same ARJUN on seeing his flower offfered to mud shivlinga flowing towards KIRATA , immidiately falls on the feet of SHIVA without loss of a moment .. This event is to show his SKILLs and SHIVABHAKTI ……ARJUNA considered SHIVA as his GURU … and He was doing penace of SHIVA and SHIVA appeared in a dramatic manner ,,, ARJUNA was a great devotee …it proves ….

    8. This supposedly great warrior failed to protect Yadava ladies after Shri Krishna died and did not even have the commonsense to send an army after those dacoits ( some people speculate that astra vidya was taken away at that time but that’s a lame excuse Arjuna was called mahabaho he had physical strength of Gods, remember he had wrestled with Lord Shiva ). Here his ego is so high that sending army would nullify his greatness hence kept a hush hush stand on it.

    ANS .. THE so called ladies were kidnapped due to curse KRISHNA had given to them when they had behaved arrogantly towards their beloved Krishna .. …
    ARJUN was more than 110 years old in age … astra vidya had been withdrawn and there were more than crore of abhirs ,,,, wrestling alone with crores at the age of 110 is difficult all the while saving ladies from being kidnapped … especially when curse is playing oN …
    why did he not send army ,, ALL the ladies had jumped into arabian sea even before ARJUN reached Hastinapur … so there was no instance of sending army ….YOu must not comment with half knowledge …. CAN ladies fit for KRISHNA be ever molested by FEW DACOITS , its food for thought ….

    9. During the Bhima – Duryodhana duel slaps on his thigh to hint Bhima. Ok fine Bhima may have broke the spine of Duryodhana and was justified but when Bhima stamped in Duryodhanas head approved of it but when Balrama started chastising Bhima Arjuna quietly slunk behind Krishna as if he disapproved of the act. Did not support Bhima and stand upto Balrama for his brother. Considering the fact the Bhima had sacrificed his son Ghatotkachas life to protect Arjuna this is infact a high level ungratefulness.
    ANS …. AGAIN the lack of general knowledge of behavioural science ,,.. what does slapping the thigh means , a sense of victory a joy and applauding cheering the eventuality of demolishing the thigh ….. oinfact slapping of thigh became a fashion after this incident only ….. to belittle a opponent …. So ARJUN must be applauded for starting a moment …
    hiding behind KRISHNA means , YOUR ANSWER will be given by KRISHNA it does not mean disapproval … because IF I give answer you may get offended so let my Teacher give one .. nothing wrong in this …

    10. Makes Uloopi pregnant and goes away. ( womans rights activists may not look kindly at this act Children rights activists would certainly be unimpressed by this performance. )

    ANS … ARJUN did not seek ULUPI , ULOOPI sought ARJUN to beget a SON [ SHE was a widow ] , a widow should live for a son to honour husbands family , when husband is not there or incapable , son is sought from superiors , [ JUST like KUNTI ] ARJUN gave her a son and went away as this son was for NAGRAJ andhis dynasty ,,,
    remember INDRA and others did not stay with KUNTI .. so also ARJUN went away .. FACTS my dear FACTS should be the basis and not charlatan logic ….

    11. His unscrupulous behavior while tackling Bhurishrava and his increase and decrease of Gurubhakti has already been made clear in my previous posting. When he needed training from Drona his gurubhakti was exemplary. Prospect of getting a beautiful bride Draupadi. Drona yeh naam kuch suna suna sa lagta hai. Strange isn’t it. ?

    Chiraan’s Ans-BHURISHRAVAS was killing a faint warrior , a disciple and dearest .. so HE indeed should have been punished ,,, what a KING does when someone steals ,he cuts off his limbs , This BHURISHRAVAS deserved the same …

    DRUPAD had already given his HALF KINGDOM to DRONA after ARJUN defeated … DRONA asked DRUPADA , now AM I FIT TO BE YOUR FRIEND ….. DRUPAD SAYS YES …. AND STILL DRONA takes only HALF KINGDOM and gives back half as FRIENDSHIP ,,,,,,,

    ARJUN weds a daughter of dear FRIEND OF DRONA …
    so your antaginisms are ill founded ……. sattire is distasteful
    One must marry women of good dynasty and vishnu bhaktas , DRUPADA had both qualities …. and VYASA the LORD had given consent too and infact directed them too , what is important GOD’s words or mortals dissatisfaction [ which is also imaginary your tiny brain ]

    12. Moola Mahabharata says that his favorite son was Abhimanyu. How can a father have a favorite son? Another angry look from children’s rights activists would not surprise me.

    ANS …. For a FATHER most able son is one who would give able progeny to his dynasty and bring laurel .. Those sons who do not concieve are looked down by PITRUS [ perhaps u also need a lesson on what PITRUS mean ] , so what pleases my FATHER , I am pleased by IT ,,,, if one of the sons fares better than others in pleasing my PITRUS , then HE is definitekly the KULDEEPAKA ie FAVOURITE , KRISHNA had already told PANDAVAS that ABHIMANYU is KULDEEPAKA and hence HE was favourite ,,,,

    DEbates are not done on attitudes of WOMEN CHILD GAY ACTIVISTS ……. they are done on DHARMA and ADHARMA and your comments show a clear lack of IT ….

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  3. santhoshvnb said:

    namashkaram guruji

    you ansers are very nice , true and contact persons good answer , nice ,
    Thanks

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  4. Jai Shri Krishna
    Respected Sirs 2 people whom you have quoted above have dismissed
    Karna from defeats at hand of Arjun and Bhim. Swami Vivekananda
    at Draupadi Swayamvara and C. Rajagopalachari in chapter 87 titled
    pledge respected in his mahabharat. Coming to Viraat yudha it can be
    easily explained. When 2 divine weapens clash it can create a very harmful
    effect on surrounding vicinity and people. When Karna was fighting Arjun
    at virat battle field there were cows in the vicinity ( gorakshan ) and that could have prevented Karna from using his divine weopens eg nagastra. Even with ordinary arrows he could be diffedent as he had done the sin of gohatya earlier for which he was cursed by a brahmin and didnt want to
    take a chance again. Case of once bitten twice shy.

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  5. Jai Shri Krishna
    Since Swami Vivekananda has been quoted above I will take the same liberty
    for Draupadi Swayamvara – The son of King Drupada rose up in the midst of the court and said: “The Kshatriya, the king caste has failed; now the contest is open to the other castes. Let a Brahmana, even a Shudra, take part in it; whosoever hits the mark, marries Draupadi.” Point of karna failing to fish eye well made but to quote Swamiji completely ” But there arose a great cry among the princes, who could not bear the idea that this beautiful princess who was a Kshatriya should be won by a poor Brahmana, from among this huge assembly of kings and princes. So, they wanted to fight Arjuna and snatch her from him by force. The brothers had a tremendous fight with the warriors, but held their own, and carried off the bride in triumph” want to draw your attention to the fighting part ( brother held their own) no where it
    is written that the brothers defeated the kings. There is a differance between Holding your own in a fight and subdueing your oponent in the fight.
    The borthers were truimphant only to the extent that they could carry away the bride. This does not necessarily mean that they won the fight they could have escaped with her as well.

    Among the Brahmanas were seated the five Pandava brothers. Arjuna, the third brother, was the hero of the bow. He arose and stepped forward. Now, Brahmanas as a caste are very quiet and rather timid people. According to the law, they must not touch a warlike weapon, they must not wield a sword, they must not go into any enterprise that is dangerous. Their life is one of contemplation, study, and control of the inner nature. Judge, therefore, how quiet and peaceable a people they are. When the Brahmanas saw this man get up, they thought this man was going to bring the wrath of the Kshatriyas upon them, and that they would all be killed. So they tried to dissuade him, but Arjuna did not listen to them, because he was a soldier. He lifted the bow in his hand, strung it without any effort, and drawing it, sent the arrow right through the wheel and hit the eye of the fish.

    Then there was great jubilation. Draupadi, the princess, approached Arjuna and threw the beautiful garland of flowers over his head. But there arose a great cry among the princes, who could not bear the idea that this beautiful princess who was a Kshatriya should be won by a poor Brahmana, from among this huge assembly of kings and princes. So, they wanted to fight Arjuna and snatch her from him by force. The brothers had a tremendous fight with the warriors, but held their own, and carried off the bride in triumph.

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  6. Hariprasad said:

    Namaskara All,

    Surya’s arguments are all based on what would have happened if certain things had transpired differently.

    – If Kunti had not abandoned Karna, he would not have sided with Duryodhana.
    – If he had never been surprised, he would have not lost to the Gandharvas.
    – If he had not lost interest, he would have not lost to the Panchalas.
    – If Lord Krishna was not present, he would have defeated Arjuna.

    All of Karna’s failures are being explained away as due to external factors. It is interesting to note that, in this line of argument, Karna and only Karna is absolved of any personal responsibility while every other character in the epic is held accountable for his/her actions.

    The main theme of argument is that “Under ideal conditions, Karna would have been a great hero”.

    This debate is about the Mahabharata that *actually took place* and not about some imaginary drama that could have been written keeping Karna’s image in mind.

    Even so, some acceptances that are clearly emerging from Surya’s arguments are that

    – Karna did side with the evil Duryodhana and did many evil acts
    – Karna lost many battles in his life
    – Karna lost to Arjuna many times

    Keeping the childish & illogical excuses/explanations aside, we should note that there is now consensus on the above facts on both sides.

    Regards, Hari

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  7. Mr Chiraan, I request you to reinstate my posts. I have seen that the following posts have been removed:
    1. The post that answers your question about why Karna did not change chariot.
    2. The post that disproves your conspiracy theory that Karna had become an ordinary soldier.
    3. The one where I answered your accusation that the assumption is that celestial weapons need to be carried always with the warrior.
    4. The post where I disproved your claim that Arjuna defeated Lord Shiva.
    5. The post where I caught your lie that Arjuna singlehandedly defeated Indra, Yama et al.
    6. The post where I demanded proof for your claim that Karna became a great warrior only because of Parasurama’s boon.

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