Hitherto Unknown Secrets !

Debators
Surya | Chiraan

Observers
Sonu | Renu | Nilesh | Sundara | Neeraj

Jury Hariprasad

Surya wants to settle the issue of Translation and original Sanskrit before going to new points.

He cites ! Ganguly 2. M N Dutt 3. R C Dutt 4. Lal to say Karna stringed the Bow.

Chiraan says All these authors have different versions and they do not match with Sanskrit .

Hariprasad shows Where Ganguly mentions Radha’s son as failed for a shloka ,R C Dutt shows it Shishupala failed and MN Dutt shows it as Jarasandha Failed.
If Surya says they are all authentic How these are different translation for same shloka.

Surya says : “ Although he does not know Sanskrit , They are all correct translation s and Jury Hariprasad has no ability to read . There is no difference at all.� He challenges to show the verses in Sanskrit by Chiraan where Karna failed or made an attempt.

Chiraan shows the verse , Surya says it is fabricated.

Chiraan says it is same Shloka which is mentioned in his site where Ganguly translation resides .

Surya says : The Sanskrit version at site is not acceptable But Ganguly is acceptable.
If chiraan can show same sansjkrit for MN Dutt [ or if he proves M N Dutt translated from so and so Sanskrit ] he would accept.

Hariprasad jury shows , In saskrit there name Karna failed and M N Dutt by the side of English he skips the name KArna . this is dubious.

Surya claims its the publishers mistake , he has pulled one Sanskrit version and printed against Dutt translation.

Chiraan says , Dutt mentions that it is Kolkata edition Sanskrit from where he has derived,
Ganguly says he has derived from Neelkantha and resorted to Bengali rendition.

LAL also confirms this in his book. P N Mullick also criticizes the interpolation and incidentally this booki is co authored by MN Dutt .
So Ganguly shows error in writing Radha’s son. LAl and Dutt agree ganguly has interpolated . All these have derived from Bhasa . Who has written two plays [not translation] making a hero out of Duryodhan and Karna .

Such plays and its views cannot be accepted as authentic translation.

Surya feigns He cannot see any such proof provided by the links. Whereas all the observers find them a learning experiences.

Surya says he accepts Vyasa Sanskrit but is not ready to accept the shloka given by Chiraan as there is scope for misinterpretation .

Chiraan says same shlokas are available in all sites on the internet and no other version is available . and hence they have to be vyasa Sanskrit shlokas , and the word ‘karna’ is clearly visible and hence there is no scope for misinterpretation for word ‘karna’

Surya says , all the sites showing that shloka are corrupt versions of Sanskrit including his own sacred-texts site[ self contradictory]

Sundara exclaims Surya is wrong in his logic.

Renu feels Surya has clearly failed

Neelesh finds Surya’s logic utter nonsense . He admitrs he was fan of Karna after watching BRC teleserial , but now after learning karma debacles he has a change of mind .
He concludes Arjun is the best among the warriors and Karna is least evil among evils.

Neeraj finds it difficult to understand as why chiraan is quoting Vivekananda when he is not accepting his views .
Hariprasad unanimously says the logic of Surya is untenable .

Sonu puts forward following questions
1. After draupadi swayamvar Karna is defeated by Arjun

2 KArna was defeated in Gandharva episode . he was captivated [fled by some] abandoning Duryodhan and army . he was rescued by ARJUN .

3. In Viraat episode Arjun single handedly defeats Drona Bheeshma and Karna all put together and Karna flees from the battlefield .

4.When Drona demands gurudakshina to capture Drupada .Duryodhan along with Karna attack drupad but is defeated and rooted and driven away. Arjun wins Drupad.

Why did Karna lose here [ he had kavach kundal and boons everything] ? isn’t these loses prove him to inferior.

Surya defends : 1.Karna was unprepared . he did not expect Bramhin to be serious adversary and hence lost .
2. In Gandharva episode , Karna was surprised [ if you are expecting Veerappan and suddenly if you find israelies what can you do] so because of element of surprise[ gandharva was superior] was there he lost . show similar incident for Arjun and I shall accept.
3. In viraat parva too He was not aware Arjun was before him hence he was unprepared.
Unpreparedness makes a warrior vulnerable . It is common and need not hamper Karna’s greatness .

Chiraan shows : Arjun similarly fought chitrarathj gandharva when he did not even have a bow and arrow and surprising attack in night , he hurled torch as astra and defeated gandharva.

Surya how can a gandharva be thought of formidable opponent . You mst show some serious incident [ Karna lost to Gandharva because gandharva was superior , yet when Arjun wins without weapons ,.it is just gandharva] – self contradictory

Hariprasad jury points out ,
How come Bramhin [arjun in disguise ] was not taken seriously by Karna , he had just demnonstrated a superior skill which all kshatriys and Karna himself could not achieve [stringing of bow and hitting of fish] Having witnessed superior skill Karna should have been more prepared , and Karna led the attack .so did he lead without preparation .

Surya :’ Karna thought it was roadside bramhin who could have got a boon to win swayamvar but will perform miserable in duel.’[- self contradictory]

Chiraan says ‘ if that were true why did all kshatriyas together fought one single bramhin.. jarasandha was most feared demon in those days , when he failed and Bramhin succeeded that means he was superior to jarasandha , Atleast Karna should have estimated that and he was prepared and defeated .

Hariprasad shows , in virat Drona declares ‘ its arjun coming to fight and then Karna says even if it is Arjun he can vanquish “ these words show he was well prepared and he did see Arjun before him and knew it was Arjun. And he lost pathetically and fled the battlefield.

Surya , “ karna was expecting Virats , But he saw Arjun at the last moment and there was no time for preparation ,hence Karna was unprepared and hence lost but that does not show him to be less than Arjun.
Otherwise Why Yudhisthir will say ‘ he lost sleep for 13 years thinking about Karna despite these setbacks’
Chiraan’ Yudhisthir has said same thing about Krishna too ‘ he said how can we vanquish jarasandha , as Krishna himself could not vanquish hinm.’
Yudhisthir is known to worry unnecessarily , his worry does not make Karna a great. The by his worry even Krishna is susceptible to Jarasandha [ which is clearly unacceptable]

Hariprasad jury asks , In drupad war , it is clearly mentioned that Duryodhan and Karna and all brothers get into competition as to who will first get to Drupad. Here Karna is well prepared .Karna knows the opponents as Drupad and Panchalas , He knows their strength and he was fully equipped with kavach kundal and bow VIJAY everything.
The why did he lose ?

Surya says “ this was drona ‘s war and Karna was not interested in winning it . He was less enthusiastic so he lost. We cannot consider this loss as mark of inferiority.�[ self contradictory] Karna lost even when prepared. And opponent surya accepts it.

Haripasad Jury says ‘ Surya’s remarks defies elementary logic. ‘
Karna lost to Drupad , Arjun thrice ,Gandharva ,Bheemasen Ghatotkach, Satyaki , Abhimanyu . He also failed to string the bow in Draupadi Swayamvar. So with so many failures Karna cannot be declared as Supreme Warrior .
Arjun is undoubtedly a superior warrior than Karna as he never lost a Battle until Krishna was there on the earth.

Comments on: "Summary of Debate Arjun vis a vis Karna -2" (17)

  1. Sonu I am not confused at all nor am I denying the integrity of Shri Chiraan. The message is very simple.
    Chiraan winning the debate proves Chiraan superior to Surya or for that matter me. (of course his intentions
    were to give knowledge ) But it does not prove Karna to be the nincompoop which he is being made out to be
    in this blog. Why should Karna suffer because of our incompetence ? The Kunti example I gave was to prove
    a point that Shri Chiraan succeeded in defending Kunti also( the points which he offered were also genuine )
    but the truth is Kuntis guilt cant be completely nullified. Similiarly Chiraan winning the debate does not completely nullify Karnas greatness. Since you asked me a straight forward question What are you still trying
    to achieve? I will extend you the same courtesy by giving you a straight forward answer. Point number one I want to convey a message that Karna was definately a potential threat to Arjuna and NOT that he was nothing compared to Arjuna or for that matter Bhima as been mentioned in the blog. Point number2
    He was a noble man not an evil person as presented yes he has done controversial things but as you
    admitted who hasnt ? In Shri Chiraans blog Krishna praises Karna I have refuted his theory on boons in my very first posting. Most people agreed with me. Sachai mey apne aap ek vajan hota hai sahab. Truth is NOT dependent on Sanskrit. I had asked a question there “When giving an incentive to a Kaurava warrior why does Lord Krishna start and stop with Karna ? To which Sri Chiraan answered – except karna there was none in the kaurava camp who could be hacked . In rajneeti only average characters are approached for bheda neeti .
    Karna was perfect recipe for it . ( A promotion. From evil Karna is now average )rest all were steadfast .
    Krishna approaching Karna is not a plus point . – Karna was aproached by dana bhedha neeti because , greed of wealth women kingdom is given to greedy during warfare , great personalities are broken by saam neeti . Karna was offered kingdom etc ” .First of all Karna was not offered any petty kingdom by Krishna.
    He was given an offer to rule over the Pandavas incuding Dharmaraj Yudhishthira as king of their Kingdom or rather emporror. This is biggest proof of his greatness. In rajneeti a section of kingdom is offered or some wealth. To rule over the entire kingdom as master or Emperor is never done. Shalya too was approached by Duryodhan but Duryodhan exercising rajneeti did not give Shalya an offer to rule over him or any of his subordinates that too as emperor. Shri Chiraan says that greed of wealth women etc is given to greedy and mediocre. His posting dated 27/09/2009 -time 04.30 says ” he could forego kingdom and lure of women by GOD to repay debt but could not fore go anger ego while dumping duryodhan for good 10 days “Hence Shri Chiraan agrees that woman possibly Draupadi was offered to Karna. This tallies with B .R Chopras serial.
    Sonu woman have been offered in the past as wives or for various reasons and the people offered were not mediocre or ordinary as Shri Chiraan says. I will give you a list.
    Vishwamitra was offered Menaka
    Raja Drupad also conducted the swayamavara of Draupadi for Arjuna.
    Raja Virat also wanted Uttara to marry Arjuna but Arjuna being great refused and proposed Abhimanyu instead
    After getting defeateed by Krishna Jambvant also presented his daughter Jambavati to Krishna to win him as
    an ally. Of course Jambvant had recognized Shri Krishna as GOD as well – Hence a devotional act.
    All the great people I have mentioned were given lure of woman but were they mediocre ? Certainly not.
    Chiraan admits that Karna could forgoe lure of woman. Isnt that a proof of greatness. Arjuna too is considered
    great becoz of conquest of lust. He rejected Urvashi. Vishwamitra was unsuccessful. Ditto for Indra when it
    came to Ahalya.
    Lets leave GOD out of our personal duel. He can help me whenever He wants. I dont think He needs my
    approval to help you or for that matter your approval to help me.

    Like

    • chiraan said:

      Krishna offered entire Kingdom to Duryodhan and only five villages under Hastinapur to PAndavaas . Krishna offered Rulership over Pandavas temporarily . [ DID KRishna really mean it ? ] WAS Duryodhan not evil ?

      The offer was to bring out ultimate evil in Duryodhan that not a needles tip space would be provided . This statement was a response to Krsihna’s offer , this was intent of Duryodhan with offer or without it ,which world would not have known to the world unless Krishna had offered the sandhi .

      Kripanashcha vittam , durjanasya manoratham devo na janati kutah manushya :

      Karna’s offer is also on same parlance .Its intent is to bring out the real self of each character .

      Like

      • Shri Chiraan. Duryodhan was offered Full Indraprastha and five villages to Pandavas.
        But that does not mean mastery over Pandavas. NO where it is written. Mastery over Pandavas
        is your opinion On an earlier ocassion Duryodhan had received Hastinapur and Pandavas had received Khandavaprastha which was nothing but a jungle type area completely inferior to a metropolis like Hastinapur. But in that case too Pandava were completely independent of Dhritarashtra and without his or Duryodhanas permission made it Indraprastha and performed successfully the Rajsooya yagna. Hence my point proven. Pandavas offered something from
        Dhritharashtra does not mean they are accepting his or Duryodhans mastery.
        5 Villages which was a slightly better prospect than that barren Khandavaprastha was also a
        similiar scenario so that the Pandavas get some thing and with their superb capabilities convert them into a metropolis. Your statement offer to Karna to bring out the self and ditto for Duryodhan
        this seems to echo Gandharis complaint against the Lord that his role as peace messenger was
        not genuine. You yourself while critising Karna have said in your blogs that for peace
        Lord Krishna was ready to sacrifice his mission to rid earth of evil. Bhima was ready to forgive duryodhana and company. While Draupadi was the first to agree for the peace proposal and
        forsake her vendetta Only Karna stuck to his ego and pledge. This is proof enough that Krishna genuinely meant what he said. Agreed in the process the slimy colours of Duryodhana did come out. Karna like Bheeshma was rigid to his pratigya. When someone who has usurped your property or has kidnapped some one very dear to you. You have to approach him. Hence Duryodhana was
        approached. In vanvaas even Jaydrahta was approached by the Bhima when he kidnapped
        Draupadi. Karna neither had usurped the property of the Pandavas and nor he had kidnapped
        any person dear to them. Hence Lord Krishna approaching Karna definately has more
        significance than approaching Duryodhana.

        Like

        • chiraan said:

          iNDRAPRASTHA WAS NOT MERE 40 SQ MILE KINGDOM . iT WAS RULERSHIP OF WORLD AS IN RAJSUYA IT WAS ESTABLISHED RULE OF WORLD . AND THERE IS A STATEMENT TO THE EXTENT OF PANDAVAS BEING SUBSERVIENT TO INDRAPRASTHA IF FIVE VILLAGES BE GRANTED . KRISHNA DOES SAY THAT . READ MAHABHARATA MINUTELY .

          NOW AGAIN TAMPERING WITH WORDS AND STATEMENTS HAVE STARTED .

          Karna neither had usurped the property of the Pandavas and nor he had kidnapped
          any person dear to them
          ANS. THIS IS FAULTY UNDERSTANDING . KARNA WAS RULING THE ANGA ONLY AS THE SUBSIDIARY OF PANDAVAS .LET ME REITERATE . [YOU MUST UNDERSTAND MEANING OF RAJSUYA ASJHWAMEDHA ,. THESE YAGNAS CAN BE PERFORMED ONLY WHEN EACH AND EVERYONE IS DEFEATED OR ACCEPTS SOVERIEGNTY .] JUST AS RAAJSUYA WAS PERFORMED , IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE , IT SHOWS EACH AND EVERY KING WAS CONQUERED BY PANDAVAS . EVEN IF ONE KING REMAINS UNCONQUERED THIS YAGNA CANNOT BE PERFORMED ,. YOUR SILLY LOGIC IS SAYING ,. THEY PERFORMED YAGNYA WITHOUT CONQUERING ANGA DESHA OF KARNA . DHRITARASHTRA ACCEPTED SOVERIEGNTY OF YUDHISTHIR , KARNA WAS DEFEATED BY BHEEMA , JARASANDHA AND ENTIRE EAST . ONLY THEN RAJSUYA YAGNYA WAS STARTED ,. OTHERWISE IT LEADS TO YAGNA BHANGA , THE SINS WOULD HAVE ENGULFED THE CLAN OF PANDAVAS . OR IF YOU SUGGEST THE YAGNYA WAS PERFORMED UNDER ADJUSTMENTS THIS IS LAUGHABLE .

          NOW WHEN IT IS ESTABLISHED THAT KARNA WAS DEFEATED Y BHEEMA , KARNA WAS ALLOWED TO RULE THE KI NGDOM AS SUBSERVIENT TO PANDAVAS . PANDAVAS WERE HIS MASTERS , BY BEING PARTY TO DYUT HE HAD BETRAYED THE MASTERS USURPED KINGDOM GIVEN BY THEM .

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          • Shri Chiraan all I can say is that Ravan even after being a trilok vijayi did not
            defeat everybody. He had not defeated Vali or Kartaveerya.
            Rajsuya yagna gives title of emperor NOT conqueror of the world.
            Jarasandha after getting defeated on so many ocassions by Shri Krishna
            was also angling for it. Thats why he was considered an obstacle for the yagna.
            He had only conquered some 89 kings. Yes his other plan was also to sacrifice
            100 kings so he could get some boon from Lord Shiva. Its ashwamedha yagna
            which is complete suzernaity and this too was performed after the Kurukshetra. In
            this yagna a horse is set free and whoever stops it has to do battle.
            Rajsuya yagya gives title of chakravorty. Akbar was also chakravorty
            but he had not conquered Rana Pratap. Your observation is Pandavas performed
            Rajsooya. Karna conquered is your conclusion or opinion and one mans opinion
            is always one mans opinion. Forget Karna even Dhritarashtra was not conquered.,
            Your logic says Pandavas defeated Hastinapura before which was under the protection of Bheeshma. Point number 1. Pandavas reverered Dhritarashtra and
            and certainly Bheeshma their noble gransire hence them asking to admit
            suzernaity completely defies logic. point number 2. Pandavas cannot defeat Bheeshma. A warrior whom even Parshuram could not defeat us yodha ke
            saamney kya arjun kya bheem? Even Arjuns victory at viraat was not emphatic
            over Bheeshma. Arjuns incapability to defeat Bheeshma is sanctioned by Mahabharata and also the bitter fact that his chariot was blasted to smithereens
            in the kurukshetra war under the powerful weopons of Bheeshma
            Drona and Karna. Its a strong possiblity that Mahabhart Tatparnirnaya state this
            that everybody was conquered. At this stage of my life I dont want to comment on
            this becoz I have not read it and then it is such a complicated work that many
            scholars cannot understand it. My intention is not to change your opinion but there
            are versions of mahabharata by scholars like C. Rajagopalachari which do make
            it clear that Karna was not conquered.

            Like

            • chiraan said:

              LET US UNDERSTAND RAJSUYA YAGNYA AND ASHVAMEDHA YAGNYA . RAVANA DID NOT DO THESE YAGNYAS .

              A YAGNA IS NOT A SHOW AND POMP EVENT WHERE A HAVAN IS MADE AND SOMEBODY IS DECLARED AS PER THE PSYCHOFANCY OF THE PEOPLE GATHERED .
              YAGNYA IA DEEKSHA . EVERY YAGNYA HAS POORVA AND APARA .
              AFTER THE DEEKSHA IS TAKEN , IN CASE OF ASHVAMEDHA YAGNYA A HORSE IS LEFT TO WIN THE BHU MANDALA NOTJUST PRITHVI EARTH ] .
              RAJSUYA DEEKSHA IS TAKEN THAN ONE RESOLVES TO WIN ENTIRE UNIVERSE ALL THE FOURTEEN WORLDS ,.

              A DEEKSHA IS BROKEN THAN IT IS EQUIVALENT TO 1000 OF BRAMHAHATYA AND PITRUS GET HELL .
              IE IF ONE LOOSES ASHWAMEDHA HIS DEEKSHA IS BROKEN [ BHANGA ] .

              ENTIRE BACKGROUND OF RAJSUYA IS PANDU IN HEAVEN DOES NOT GET HIS DUE PLACE IN FRONT OF HARISHCHANDRA , THE REASON BEING LESS PUNYA . SO RAJSUYA IS ADVISED BY NARADA TO YUDHISTHIR . YUDHISTHIR FEARS TO TAKE EVEN DEESKHA BECAUSE JARASANDHA IS ALIVE AND HE EXPRESSES A DOUBT WHETHER JARASANDHA COULD BE VANQUISHED[ AS KRISHNA HAD LEFT HIM 17 TIMES ] . IF NOT THEN HIS DEEKSHA WILL BE RUPTUTERED IT WILL BRING HARM TO PANDU IN HEAVEN ,
              BHEEMA CHIDES YUDHISTHIR FOR DOUBTING KRISHNA [ HAVING NOT VANQUISHED ] . KRISHNA AND BHEEMA ASSURE THEY WILL GET RID OF JARASANDHA AND ONLY AFTER THAT RAJSUYA DEEKSHA IS TAKEN ,.

              ARJUN IS NOT SENT TO EAST AS KARNA HAS KAVACH AND KUNDA L, VAISHNAVA ASTRA IS INTACT AT PRAGJYOTISHPUR BHEEMA GOES TO EAST TO DEFEAT KARNA AND OTHERS . HE GOES TO DEFEAT GARUDA AND SHIVA . AND SESHA . IS VANQUISHED IN PATALA LOKA.
              ARJUN SHARES SEAT WITH INDRA . NAKUL SAHADEV WEST AND SOUTH , VIBHEESHANA IS ASKED BY GHATOTKACH TO ACCEPT PANDAVA SUPREMACY IN LANKA . vAMANA IN SUTALA LOKA ASKS BALI TO ACCEPT SUPREMACY OF PANDAVAS . BRAMHA GIVES BHEEMA AND EQUAL STATUS IN SATYA JANA TAPO LOKA .

              ONLY WHEN EVERYONE IS VANQUISHED ONLY THEN YAGNYA IS STARTED AND IN ASHWAMEDHA HORSE IS SACRIFICED AND OTHER RITUALS TAKES PLACE , THE RISHIS MUNIS DONT PERFORM YAGNYA OR DEVATAS DONT PARTAKE HAVIS FROM YAGNYA IF IT IS DONE FOR A SHOW . OR JUST TO MAKE A DECLARATION . AFTER THE DEVATAS PARTAKE THE HAVIS , THE AVABHRUTA SNANA IS DONE ONLY THEN ONE GETS THE FRUITS OF YAGNYA . AND ONE IS CORONATED
              HERE THE RAJASUYA WAS PERFORMED AND YUDHISTHIR WAS CORONATED SHOWS THEY CONQUERED ANGA DESHA ALSO .

              SECONDLY WHEN DURYODHAN MADE KARNA THE KING OF ANGA . WHAT WAS DURYODHAN ‘S RIGHT OVER THIS ANGA DESH .
              ANGA IS MODERN JABALPUR , HASTINAPUR IS DELHI . THESE ARE MILES AWAY , IN BETWEEN MITHILA ETC ARE THERE . BUT AS A SARVABHOUMA OF WORLD DHRITARASHTRA COULD COMMAND THE KING EXISTENT OF ANGA DESHA TO VACATE FOR KARNA . ANGA DESHA WAS NOT WITHOUT KING BEFORE THAT , IT WAS SUBSERVIENT TO HASTINAPUR .
              SAME THING HAPPENS AFTER RAJSUYA OR ASHWAMEDHA , WHEN SOME ASKS TO VACATE ONE HAS TO VACATE ., kARNA’S POSITION WAS SIMILAR .
              KARNA OWED ALLEGIANCE TO PANDAVAS AFTER RAJSUYA , SO ALSO ALL THE KINGDOMS .

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            • chiraan said:

              JARASANDHA WAS AVAISHNAV HE COULD NOT EYE RAJSUYA BECAUSE IT IS VAISHNAV DEEKSHA , AND AGAIN YUDHISTHIR DID NOT SACRIFICE 100 KINGS LIKE YOU SAID JARASANDHA WAS EYEING BY CAPTURING 89 KINGS . JARASANDHA WAS ATTEMPTING TO BECOME BRAMHA BY MAKING BALI.
              DHRITARASHTRA WAS CARETAKER KING OF HASTINAPUR AND YUDHISTHIR WAS HANDED DOWN THE KINGDOM WITH AN ADJUSTMENT THAT HASTINAPUR BE WITH DHRITARASHTRA . THIS WAS ACCEPTED BY YUDHISTHIR FOR THE PEACE AND ELDERLY ADVICE . BUT TECHNICALLY YUDHISTHIR WAS SARVABHAUMA . WHEN RAJSUUYA IS PERFORMED , KINGS SHOULD DECLARE ALLEGIANCE OR FIGHT . BHEESHMA AND DHRITRASHTRA DID NOT WANTED A FIGHT [ PREMATURE ] AND HENCE ALLEGIANCE WAS DECLARED WITH GIFTS TO YUDHISTHIR . ALL THE KINGDOMS PERTAINING TO WIVES OF PANDAVAS TO DECLARED ALLEGIANCE . NAKUL EVEN HAD SENT A NOTICE TO DWARAKA TO EXTRACT TAX FROM KRISHNA’S CITY AS IT WAS SUBSERVIENT TO PANDAVAS . THIS WAS THE ONLY MISTAKE COMMITTED BY HIM .

              ASHWAMEDHA WAS PERFORMED TWICE BY PANDAVAS .
              ALLIANCES AND POLITICAL FRIENDSHIPS CHANGE FROM TIME TO TIME AND HENCE KINGS ENFORCE YAGNYAS TO ANNOUNCE THEIR SUPREMACY .
              YOU REQUIRE IN DEPTH GEO POLITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE ERA AND ALSO SOME BACKGROUND IN SUCH ANALYSIS PERTAINING TO DEFENCE AND STRATEGIC ALLIANCE . WITHOUT WHICH SUCH EVENTS CANNOT BE COMPREHENDED .

              FOR THE PRESENT I RECOMMEND YOU MAKE A RESEARCH ON RAJSUYA YAGNYA [ OR YAGNYAS IN PARTICULAR ESPECIALLY FROM HINDU POINT OF VIEW AS TO WHAT CONSTITUTES A YAGNYA AND HOW IMPORTANT A DEESKHA IS TO BRAMHINS AND KSHATRIYAS .

              Like

              • Respected Sir. I will follow your advise. But my above posting says
                that its Jarasandha who was planning to sacrifice 100 kings. Not
                Yudhishtira.

                Like

  2. Jai Shri Krishna

    My Learned friend you are unnecesarily getting offended. Mr. Surya had come for a debate. Hence he was shree Chiraans opponent. As a debator your job is too defeat your opponent NOT learn from him.
    Shri Chiraan defeated Mr. Surya fair and square. I am not denying it at all. I am just quoting from
    C. Rajagopalacharis book which Mr. Chiraan has quoted. But yes I agree with you that there are no 100% authentic translated versions apart from the original Sanskrit Holy Scriptures and its indeed a handicap for
    people like me or for that matter even Surya who dont know sanskrit. I follow the teachings of Swami Vivekananda although I know Shri Chiraan does not think highly of him. Swamis writings on the Mahabharata
    although brief but precise do not recognize Karna getting defeated by Gandharvas. But yes his summary
    clearly mentions that Karna failed in swayamvar. I dont play double standards. Please realise that I have admitted that Karna failed in swayamvar and he was not justified in insulting Draupadi. Something which my other fellow Karna supporters have not done yet. Shri Chiraan did a splendid job in defending Kunti from Karnas point of view and I admire his debating skill. But in the end I have read in various versions that Yudhishthira had cursed Kunti for keeping this secret. Not only Kunti but all women that they will never be able to keep a secret. This curse was given in Shri Krishna and Bhimas presence and neither of these great
    people objecteed to Yudhishthire whereas Bhima was know to object to Yudhishthira when he was wrong. Even Lord Krishna was know to chastisize him. Shri Chiraan has a blog 18th day Krishna resents
    Yudhsihthira. Although I dont know sanskrit here is a conversation which I have recorded between Kunti and Krishna Its my first feeble attempt at sanskrit

    “14 pitāmahah śāmtanava ācāryaś ca yudhām patih
    karnaś ca dhārtarāstrārtham vardhayanti bhayam mama
    15 nācāryah kāmavāñ śisyair drono yudhyeta jātucit
    pāndavesu katham hārdam kuryān na ca pitāmahah
    16 ayam tv eko vrthā drstir dhārtarāstrasya durmateh
    mohānuvartī satatam pāpo dvesti ca pāndavān
    17 mahaty anarthe nirbandhī balavāmś ca viśesatah
    karnah sadā pāndvānām tan me dahati sāmpratam
    18 āśamse tv adya karnasya mano ‘ham pāndavān prati
    prasādayitum āsādya darśayantī yathātatham”
    translated in english
    ‘The grandsire (Bhishma), the son of Santanu, the preceptor (Drona), who is the foremost of warriors, and Karna, having embraced Duryodhana’s side, enhance my fears. The preceptor Drona, it seemeth to me, will never fight willingly against his pupils. As regards the Grandsire, why will he not show some affection for the Pandavas? There is only this Karna then, of deluded understanding and ever following the deluded lead of the wicked Duryodhana, that hateth the Pandavas. Obstinately pursuing that which injureth the Pandavas, this Karna is, again, very powerful. It is this which burneth me at present. Proceeding to gratify him. I will today disclose the truth and seek to draw his heart towards the Pandavas. ‘ Shri Chiraan said that Kunti came to Karna to give him dharma updesh and an opportunity to save his life. But above conversation says that she was not worried about Karna but about her own children ie the Pandavas. She did mention Karna of deluded understanding but her prime aim is to prevent injury to Pandavas. It cannot be argued that Arjuna has more
    impressive track record than Karna. As shri Chiraan says what makes a good warrior a great warrior is consitency and Arjuna had it. Karna didnt. To that extent Arjuna was superior to Karna. But superiority of Arjun
    stops right here. It has been pointed out that in the final battle its Karna too had rendered Arjuna senseless although for a brief moment. C. Rajagopalachari records both Bhima and Karna coming up with good performances against each other in his version chapter titled pledge respected. I have seen people
    comparing Karna to Vinod Kambli and Arjuna to Sachin Tendulkar. I feel its a good comparison but not completely accurate. I would compare Karna to Boris Becker and Arjuna to Pete Sampras. In my humble
    opinion this debate proves Chiraans superiority to Surya. In the mahabharat not only Karna everybody has some skeleton to hide in his or her closet. Look at the great Bheeshma didnt he insult the 3 princess of
    Kashi by forcefully taking them from their swayamvar and completely denying them that right. You may argue
    that these 3 ladies were not insulted as much as Draupadi. But when a ladies self respect is in question there is no such thing as a 10 % insult or a 20 % insult. Its all 100 %. Indirectly he ruined the life of Amba as well.
    Drona too. Look at his complete inactivity in protecting Draupadi and his high level enthusiasm in getting
    Abhimanyu killed. Coming to Kripacharya. When Karna talked about attacking the Pandavas he is quick to
    chasitise Karna but when Ashwatthama – after the Bhima Duryodhana duel talks about killing the Pandavas
    in a surprise attack Kripacharyas enthusaism in chasitizing Ashwatthama is hardly observed. He litrally
    becomse Ashwatthamas right hand man in this mission. Lord Balrama himself. All this while Duryodhana
    was heaping injustices on Pandavas he did not utter a word against Duryodhana. But when Bhima hits
    Duryodhana on his thigh which was a little controversial this Balrama is quick to chasitisize Bhima and
    attacks him.

    best regards
    Niraj Sharma

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    • Niraj – “Shri Chiraan defeated Mr. Surya fair and square. I am not denying it at all.”

      SONU: You admit Chiraan “defeated Mr. Surya fair and square”, so why are you debating, repeating, contradicting and disagreeing on the same concluded points and going around in circles? What are you still trying to achieve? You sound confused.

      Niraj – “yes I agree with you that there are no 100% authentic translated versions apart from the original Sanskrit Holy Scriptures and its indeed a handicap for people like me or for that matter even Surya who dont know sanskrit.”

      SONU: You admit you don’t know the original Sanskrit Holy scriptures, (on your above post) you have said “As a debater your job is too defeat your opponent NOT learn from him”. You are another defeated debater here not willing to learn from Chiraan and admit you don’t have the knowledge fit for its purpose, so what use is it to keep debating on the same concluded points? What are you still trying to achieve?

      Niraj: – “I follow the teachings of Swami Vivekananda although I know Shri Chiraan does not think highly of him. Swamis writings on the Mahabharata although brief but precise do not recognize Karna getting defeated by Gandharvas. But yes his summary
      clearly mentions that Karna failed in swayamvar. I dont play double standards. Please realise that I have admitted that Karna failed in swayamvar and he was not justified in insulting Draupadi.”

      SONU: We concluded S.Vivekananda`s teaching`s ages ago (they are modernised and only some passages match the original versions). One of the above post by you says “By now its clearly evident that there is more than one version to a particular event. Whether its Karna being rejected by Draupadi or Karna failing to string the bow like everybody else.” This shows you didn’t even know the full truth with confidence and now (above) very good you finally admit “Karna failed in swayamvar and he was not justified in insulting Draupadi.”

      Niraj: – “Shri Chiraan did a splendid job in defending Kunti from Karnas point of view and I admire his debating skill. But in the end I have read in various versions that Yudhishthira had cursed Kunti for keeping this secret. Not only Kunti but all women that they will never be able to keep a secret. This curse was given in Shri Krishna and Bhimas presence and neither of these great people objecteed to Yudhishthire whereas Bhima was know to object to Yudhishthira when he was wrong. Even Lord Krishna was know to chastisize him. Shri Chiraan has a blog 18th day Krishna resentsYudhsihthira. Although I dont know sanskrit here is a conversation which I have recorded between Kunti and Krishna Its my first feeble attempt at sanskrit (can be found in Niraj`s post above).”

      SONU: Fantastic, you recognise Chiraan`s appropriate debating skills, but yet keep disagreeing on many concluded points related to Karna and going around in circles. If you haven’t finished getting to the bottom of various debating points on KARNA what use is it to jump onto other points? Again you admit you don’t know Sanskrit, so why present that as evidence without saying where its come from? Will you able to match that to the original Holy Scriptures in Sanskrit?

      Niraj – ‘ Shri Chiraan said that Kunti came to Karna to give him dharma updesh and an opportunity to save his life. But above conversation says that she was not worried about Karna but about her own children ie the Pandavas. She did mention Karna of deluded understanding but her prime aim is to prevent injury to Pandavas.” “In my humble opinion this debate proves Chiraans superiority to Surya.”

      SONU: Here is a prime example of where you are trying to prove Chiraan wrong. Apart from praising him, above you said “Shri Chiraan defeated Mr. Surya fair and square”. Surya raised many same points as you (excuses). This is another point you have raised in favour of Karna and is unnecessary when talking about Karna`s defeats as a warrior.

      Niraj: – “It cannot be argued that Arjuna has more impressive track record than Karna. As shri Chiraan says what makes a good warrior a great warrior is consitency and Arjuna had it. Karna didnt. To that extent Arjuna was superior to Karna. But superiority of Arjun stops right here. It has been pointed out that in the final battle its Karna too had rendered Arjuna senseless although for a brief moment. C. Rajagopalachari records both Bhima and Karna coming up with good performances against each other in his version chapter titled pledge respected.”

      SONU: – Again contradictions and in denial. The end result counts, Arjun defeated Karna many times. You have admitted here yourself who was the better warrior (Arjuna) but still in denial and making appalling excuses for Karna.

      Niraj: – “I have seen people comparing Karna to Vinod Kambli and Arjuna to Sachin Tendulkar. I feel its a good comparison but not completely accurate. I would compare Karna to Boris Becker and Arjuna to Pete Sampras.

      SONU: This is laughable, Karna and Arjuna were warriors of a different generation with a different purpose, how on earth can they be compared to actors and tennis players of this generation??? This shows you don’t understand how powerful warriors were in the time of Mahabharata, their strengths, weaknesses, rules, weapons, etc. I am sorry to say but it’s not rocket science to know you can’t compare Mahabharata warriors to actors and tennis players of this generation.

      Niraj – “not only Karna everybody has some skeleton to hide in his or her closet. Look at the great Bheeshma didnt he insult the 3 princess of Kashi by forcefully taking them from their swayamvar and completely denying them that right. You may argue that these 3 ladies were not insulted as much as Draupadi. But when a ladies self respect is in question there is no such thing as a 10 % insult or a 20 % insult. Its all 100 %. Indirectly he ruined the life of Amba as well. Drona too. Look at his complete inactivity in protecting Draupadi and his high level enthusiasm in getting
      Abhimanyu killed. Coming to Kripacharya. When Karna talked about attacking the Pandavas he is quick to chasitise Karna but when Ashwatthama – after the Bhima Duryodhana duel talks about killing the Pandavas in a surprise attack Kripacharyas enthusaism in chasitizing Ashwatthama is hardly observed. He litrally becomse Ashwatthamas right hand man in this mission. Lord Balrama himself. All this while Duryodhana was heaping injustices on Pandavas he did not utter a word against Duryodhana. But when Bhima hits Duryodhana on his thigh which was a little controversial this Balrama is quick to chasitisize Bhima and attacks him.

      SONU: Again more excuses for Karna and full of contradictions. Again why jump onto different points? Why use similar different points to defend Karna each time? Nobody has said Karna was the only one in Mahabharata that had bad points and committed unforgivable sins.

      To summarise, putting aside excuses and off key points.
      Niraj agree`s Chiraan won the debate “fair and square”.
      Niraj admits that “Karna failed in swayamvar and he was not justified in insulting Draupadi.”
      Niraj admits “It cannot be argued that Arjuna has more impressive track record than Karna. As shri Chiraan says what makes a good warrior a great warrior is consitency and Arjuna had it. Karna didnt. To that extent Arjuna was superior to Karna”.
      Niraj admits “Original Sanskrit Holy Scriptures and its indeed a handicap for people like me or for that matter even Surya who dont know sanskrit.”
      Niraj admits “As a debator your job is too defeat your opponent NOT learn from him”

      Niraj, Chiraan`s intention was never to get satisfaction from victory of a debate, his intention is obviously to teach to the truth and pass on God`s messages.
      Niraj so what is the fuss and repetition about? Why create unnecessary noise? I hope you have realised how you sound by now, if not, only God can help you.

      Like

  3. Jai Shri Krishna
    My learned friend read my passage care fully. I myself have admitted that this is a clumsy translation.
    In this debate Surya had pointed out that In viraat parva too Karna was not expecting Arjuna and was
    unprepared. Unpreparedness makes a warrior vulnerable . It is common and need not hamper Karna’s greatness on which Shri Chiraan shows : Arjun similarly fought chitrarathj gandharva when he did not even
    have a bow and arrow and surprising attack in night , he hurled torch as astra and defeated gandharva.Arjun too was unprepared and won. Good point. But the problem is that this gandharva was also equally
    unprepared. To my knowledge he was sporting with his wives. To nullify this point you will have to show
    an example where Arjuna is unprepared and his opponent is fully prepared and aware he is going too face Arjuna and Arjunas opponent is a hostile opponent. Chitrathj was hostile but unprepared. Lord Shiva was
    prepared powerful but not hostile or an enemy of Arjuna fighitng to kill. To my knowldge The events before the Viraat yudha are like this. One fine morning Duryodhan receives the news that Keechaka a strong man in Matsaya kingdom has been killed in a fist fight. He reaches to the correct conclusion that this feat has been done by Bhima. Duryodhan sends his friend Susharma the king of the Trigarta desh to attack Viraat anticipating that the Pandavas will come out of their hiding to defend Matsaya. As an added effort he along with Karna Bheeshma etc also followed up with an attack and tried to steal the cattle wealth of the Matsaya king. Duryodhans anticipation was 80 % correct becoz the 4 Pandavas came out to fight Susharma. Arjuna didnt go to fight Susharma because his disguise was very differant. While the 4 Pandavas were disguised as commen men Arjuna was disguised as a Eunuch thats why he was not allowed to enter the battlefield by Virata. When Virats son uttar kumar received the news of the Kaurava attack he had no choice but to take Arjuna – Brihannala with him to the battlefield that too as a charioteer as no one else was available. Hence its clearly evident that Karna and the other warriors were not expecting Arjuna when they were capturing the cattle of Viraat.
    The element of surprise is recoginized by C. Rajgopalacharis mahabharata. Ashwatthama was counting on that only when he launched his attack and killed Drishtadyumna and the 5 sons of Draupadi. Himself when surprised and confronted by the Pandavas later cut a sorry figure and could not control his brahmastra. Surya said that Bheeshma too lost to Arjuna for the same reason easily at Viraat but at Kurukshetra was unconquerable. Too which Shri Chiraan had pointed out that Arjuna was just respecting his Pitamaha and hence was going easy on him. Good point. But then again Bheeshma was a warrior with a rather impressive track record. When prepared he faced Shri Parshurama and was unconquerable. Arjuna cannot be
    superior to Shri Parshurama. Coming back to R.C Dutts translation yes it was considered unauthentic. But then again even Swami Vivekanandas transalation was considered a silly translation but used as a weapon
    against Karna too prove he failed at Swayamwar.
    Best regards
    Niraj

    Like

    • Anyone bright enough would have been able to make out Surya was not here to learn and had no genuine intention; however the points Surya made brought out the real truth from learned people.

      Niraj said “To nullify this point you will have to show an example where Arjuna is unprepared and his opponent is fully prepared and aware he is going too face Arjuna and Arjunas opponent is a hostile opponent.”

      Chiraan has presented examples already of how Arjuna has won unprepared. It’s not a good thing to shy away from the truth and to make excuses each time.

      Varna Parva: Duryodhana, Dushasana, Shakuni, and Karna were keen on spying on the Pandava`s in the forest. They also wanted to take pleasure in their miseries. They were badly defeated, it was so humiliating. They got saved by the Pandava`s they were less prepared.
      Karna felt indebted to Duryodhana, so why didn’t Karna appreciated Panadava`s for saving their lives?

      THE WAX PALACE & FIRE: Karna was instrumental in plotting this. Arjuna and the rest of Pandavas were unprepared and attacked behind their backs. They fought the tragedy and were successful and alive at the end of it.

      Translations: It was concluded that there are no 100% authentic translated versions apart from the original Sanskrit Holy Scriptures.
      The articles by Chiraan have been written with appropriate studies and correct translations.
      What can Chiraan do if people are so passionate about debating but don’t know original Sanskrit scriptures? And are not willing to learn. Apart from this
      Chiraan used the sources that are not 100% genuine, but only used certain passages that match the original Sanskrit scriptures, as these sources were used and known by the debaters on this site.

      Like

      • Draupadi`s Swayamvara

        There are many debates going around in circles even though it was concluded Karna took part and lost.

        Duryodhana made Karna a king at the martial exhibition. All the Kings/Princes were invited to Draupadi`s Swayamvara. It was said “whoever shoots an arrow through the device and into the target will win Draupadi`s hand”.

        Even without evidence it can be logically assumed Karna was invited to participate, took part and lost.

        As mentioned countless of times no translated Mahabharata version`s are 100% genuine. Draupadi`s Swayamvara episode is not consistently translated. Some state Karna took part and lost (this matches Original Sanskrit scriptures), so that’s correctly written. Other translations state Karna was about to take part but was disqualified before making an attempt because of caste or states Karna attempted, lifted & strung the bow but then was disqualified because of caste.

        Various translators have said in their preface they translated and changed Mahabharata to suit certain people/audiences and modernised it. Some translators had bad intentions from the first place. Caste is a prime thing to pick and make emphasis on. It would have been something for the west to laugh at, ridicule and get satisfaction from. For these translators’s Karna character would have been the easiest to make it look greater than it was and show how unfortunate he was and treated unfairly just because of his birth (but in reality its far from the truth). Again this gives something for the west to laugh at and even influences the east. Can the genuine translators ever blame Lord Krishna for anything or even compare God to souls? Could genuine translators even state God was biased and had favourites and treated Karna unfairly?
        Use you head and not emotions.

        Like

  4. Jai Shri Krishna. By now its clearly evident that there is more than one version to a particular event. Whether
    its Karna being rejected by Draupadi or Karna failing to string the bow like everybody else. Even battle with Arjuna according to some Karna was defeated according to others mentioned in this very blog Shri Krishna intervened at the swayamvara. There are 2 versions even of Karnas previous birth. Some places I have read he was Surgiva other place I have read he was an asura with 1000 kavachas. I believe Padma puran which is a satvic puraan mentions Karna was Svetaja created by Brahma. Like everything else Virat yudha also has another version ie from R.C Dutt whom under Rabindranath Tagore worked.

    Below is the extract related to the battle at Virata

    ” RESCUE OF THE CATTLE
    Arjun decked his mighty stature in the gleaming arms of war,
    And with voice of distant thunder rolled the mighty battle-car,
    “That is Arjun’s monkey-standard, how it greets my ancient eyes,
    Well the Kurus know the standard like a comet in the skies,
    By these darts his salutation to his teacher loved of old,
    Years of exile now completed, Arjun sends with greetings bold!
    Arjun marked the Kuru warriors arming for th’ impending war,
    Whispered thus to prince Uttara as he drove the battle-car:
    “Stop thy steeds, O prince of Matsya! for too close we may not go,
    Stop thy chariot whence, my arrows reach and slay the distant foe,
    Seek we out the Kuru monarch, proud Duryodhan let us meet,
    If he falls we win the battle, other chieftains will retreat.
    There is Drona my preceptor, Drona’s warlike son is there,
    Kripa and the mighty Bhishma, archer Karna, tall and fair,
    Them I seek not in this battle, lead, O lead thy chariot far,
    Midst the chiefs Duryodhan moves not, moves not in the ranks of war,
    But to save the pilfered cattle speeds he onward in his fear,
    While these warriors stay and tarry to defend their monarch’s rear,
    But I leave these car-borne warriors, other work to-day is mine,
    Meet Duryodhan in the battle, win thy father’s stolen kine!”
    Matsya’s prince then turned the courses, left behind the war’s array,
    Where Duryodhan with the cattle quickly held his onward way,
    Kripa marked the course of Arjun, guessed his inmost thought aright,
    Thus he spake to brother warriors urging speed and instant fight:
    “Mark ye, chieftains, gallant Arjun wheels his sounding battle-car,
    ‘Gainst our prince and proud Duryodhan seeks to turn the tide of war,
    Let us fall upon our foeman and our prince and leader save,
    Few save INDRA, god of battles, conquers Arjun fierce and brave,
    What were Matsya’s fattened cattle, many thousands though they be,
    If our monarch sinks in battle like a ship in stormy sea!”
    Vain were Kripa’s words of wisdom, Arjun drove the chariot fair,
    While his shafts like countless locusts whistled through the ambient air,
    Kuru soldiers struck with panic neither stood and fought, nor fled,
    Gazed upon the distant Arjun, gazed upon their comrades dead!
    Arjun twanged his mighty weapon, blew his far-resounding shell,
    Strangely spake his monkey-standard, Kuru warriors knew it well,
    Sankha’s voice, Gandiva’s accents, and the chariot’s booming sound,
    Filled the air like distant thunder, shook the firm and solid ground.
    Kuru soldiers fled in terror or they slumbered with the dead,
    And the rescued lowing cattle with their tails uplifted fled! ”

    Above extract clearly mentions that Arjuna went after Duryodhan and fought with him only to save the cattle saying ” But I leave these car-borne warriors, other work to-day is mine,” and Kripa warning everybody to save Duryodhan falling on deaf ears. I know this is a rather clumsy looking translation and its possible that even Karna supporters may refute it let alone Arjuna suporters. I also appreciate the fact that the Viraat yudha is a very popular episode but then again Draupadi rejecting Karna becoz he was a sutputra is also a popular episode. Virat yudha claims foremost kuru warriors including Bheeshma Drona and Karna lost to Arjuna.
    I will be the first one to say emphatically that Karna was not the greatest warrior. The greatest warrior was Bheeshma a warrior who battled and equaled Shri Parshurama the incarnation of Vishnu himself. Please realize a warrior whom even Parshuram couldn’t defeat cant be inferior to Arjuna or any one.
    Yes Arjuna was emotionally attached to Bheeshma hence hesitated to kill him but Bheeshma too had that
    high level affection and was suffering from the same emotional handicap. It cannot be argued that Sugriva the son of Surya was inferior to Bali the son of Indra.Karna as his status as son of Surya is nothing. It is his status as a disciple of Parshurama which made him a great warrior. Sugriva didn’t have that fortune to be trained by an Incarnation of Sri Vishnu. He had fortune to serve HIM – Lord Rama

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    • It was concluded R.C Dutt`s translation`s are not genuine. The site has passages that are backed up to state “Karna failing to string the bow like everybody else” and how Karna lost in “battle at Virata”. Kindly go through the blog for a reminder.

      Like

  5. kingprince said:

    karna is the biggest daanveer .. if u think that karna is not euqal to arjun then why did krishna say to indra to protect arjun … thats why indra asked for his kavach and kundal…. as everyone knows that karnas kavaach cannot be pierced from any weapon not even divyaastra… and those kundals where dipped in amrit …. the thing u say about drupad war duryodhan went alone to war with his big sena karna did not join… as it was a gurudakshina asked to duryodhan …… i have no doubt that the pandavs are dharm and right but insulting karna on this website is so cheap .. remmeber one thing karna is the son of surya dev the source of life hence cannot be at all weak and he is eldest brother of pandavs he had all qualities the each of the pandavs had said by krisha when krishna meets karna regarding the shanti message

    Like

    • Naveen said:

      Even Sugreev ( Ramayan) was son of surya Dev but was weaker than Bali ( indra’s son) . SO that Point raised by king prince please put it to rest.
      Karna :- Daanveer yes. Great warrior yes , Greatest Warrior NO ( Emphatically)

      Proved in Virat yudh by arjuna single handedly defeated everyone…
      He takes every the injustices of the Kauravas with courage and still he hesitates to kill them standing before him for war.. ( He did not kill even one brother ( except karna and he did not know))

      Like

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