Hitherto Unknown Secrets !

Shanti Parva – Mahabharata

Yudhisthir Asks NARAD muni “ How did Karna get curses ?”

Narad muni says , this is Dev Rahasya but yet I would tell you . To decrease the Kshatriya population Sun got a brilliant son from Kunti . He was named KARNA . Karna learnt dhanurved from Acharya DRONA in hastinapur . But since childhood he was jealous of strength of BHEEM , astra vidya of ARJUN , Your intelligence and Nakul sahadevs’ vinay .He was also weary of freindship between Krishna and ARJUN . Seeing extreme support to Yudhisthir in the praja , he made friendship with Duryodhan during childhood .

After inspecting extreme brilliance of Arjun in dhanurvidya , he asked Acharya Drona in solitude that I want to learn Bramhastra its prayog and samhar .

Acharya Drona said , this vidya is only reserved for BRAMHINS and KSHATRIYAS WELL ESTABLISHED IN BRAMHACHARYA AND VEDAS .

Acharya SAID THIS taking into consideration Karna’s proximity to Duryodhan and rivalry with Arjun . After knowing this Karna went away from the place .

He reached MAHENDRA PARVAT . There he met Lord Parshuraam and introduced himself as Bramhin from Bhargav gotra .

Karna was practising astra vidya on mahendra parvat , one day he mistakenly killed a cow while practising . He was cursed by the Bramhin saying his wheel will be stuck in the ground and he will slain . Even after promising to give many cows , gold and land Bramhin could not be pacified . He did not take his curse back .

Dejected Karna went to his preceptor and served him with devotion and bramhacharya . Parshuram happy with his service taught him Bramhastra , its use and reversal . One day when Lord Parshuram was tired chose to rest in the lap of KARNA . There by a insect which feeds on flesh and blood , bit through karna’s thighs and a pool of blood disturbed the sleep of LORD Parshuraam . Parshuram cast his eyes on the insect immediately it turned into a Rakshasa , Lord asked who he was , he said he was A daitya from Satyayuga by name DANSH . One day he had tried to abduct the wife of BHRIGU muni . Rishi gave him curse to become an insect . On repeated lament and request Bhrigu said he would be relieved once eys are set on him by one of his progeny in his lineage . Parshuraam is of Bhargav gotra in the lineage of Bhrigu . Thus I am relieved of curse .

Looking at Karna Parshuram said , such a terrible pain could not be sustained by a bramhin , you seem to have kshatriya qualities , Karna fearing a terrible curse , immediately fell on the feet of Parshuram and said , I am from the caste SUTA and in greed of Bramhastra I lied to you . But as teacher is akin to a father , I introduced myself as the Bhargav gotra as you are from the lineage of Bhrigu and my Father .

Looking at the shivering KARNA Parshuraam smilingly addresed , ‘ fool , owing to the greed of astra you have cheated me , hence you will forget the astras and face defeat whenever you will fight with a sense of competition [ or whenever you fight a warrior you feel worthy to be vanquished]

There is no place in this ashram for liars and greedy . But I also bless you with a bow and chariot as long as you are fighting without the spirit of competition sitting in this chariot you will not be vanquished .

After saluting Parshuraam Karna returned to the Hastinapur and declared to Duryodhan that I have learnt Bramhastra!!!!!!

Notes :

  1. Initial dhanurvidya was taught to Karna by DRONA himslef , he was denied astras .
  2. Karna could win battles with others [ other than ARJUN BHEEM etc ] only because of Parshuraam’s boons , not by self strength or proficiency .
  3. Curses to karna were owing to his own misdeeds . He was not victim of circumstances . Gohatya cannot be a victimisation , lying to lord cannot be a circumstantial .
  4. Greed was predominant in karna
  5. jealousy was main factor in zeal for astras . Karna did not want to acquire astras for a just ruling or dharma yudha , he wanted them to excel Arjun . With or without astra karna had terrible ill feelings towards ARJUN ,

krishnarpanamastu

Comments on: "Story of Karna – as told by NARADA" (78)

  1. Riemann said:

    pl read the above as

    nothing validates.the dambodhava theory

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    • Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

      “Hi chiraan, i have been through everything you have said in this post. i am a mathematician and got obsessed with sanskrit.. i have read the karna parva as-is.. nothing validates..

      secondly on reverse engineering verses.. no where with any logic should any one interpret this: (i.e. if you understand what logic is). SPARDHA IS IMMATERIAL ..afaik what the verses convey is something very simple.. results might be beyond control.. that does not mean competition is immaterial.. you need to still compete, competition lays down, up to some extent the basis of “superiority” .

      in the widest sense, spardha may or may not decide the outcome.. so sometimes it can and sometimes it cannot and,

      in the very very (read utmost) widest sense, the fruits of spardha are meant to be enjoyed by all and not just some particular player.. have you heard about how competing firms eventually create value for the end-consumer???.. dude, seriously you need to enrich your perspective.. its too narrow !!!

      thirdly, on SPARDHA WITH ARJUNA.. this crosses all boundaries of “laughability”.. well i have only read karna parva as-is… but beyond that i have relied on concise translations.. and it seems, you narrow perception rejects the notion of karna embroiled in a spardha with the entire princely order and not just arjuna.. arjuna is just a symbolic representation.. he was what we may call .. a representative of .the class-struggle for the LOWER CLASSES.. and, he had a point to prove.”

      Thanks Riemann, I agree to your views. Competition or spardha is also important in a man’s life. Without sense of spardha how can one work hard and strive towards achieving a goal. Arjuna himself was determined to become the best in the science of archery for this reason he even practiced with bow even during night and was called “Gudakesha” or conqueror of sleep. As concerning Karna competing with him its natural that when two warriors of same caliber and same expertise come in front of each other rivalry is natural. Two lions always compete with each other for kingship of forest. Victory or defeat is a matter of destiny and one’s efforts and god’s will. In Bhishma Parva Sanjaya says to Dhritrasthra ” When Dwapara age sets in, O king, all the (four) orders born become capable of great exertion, endued with great energy, and desirous of conquering one another.” This theory is indeed true because in Mahabharata even Suta’s who were supposed to drive chariots and recite religious quotes to others learnt weapons and participated in MB war under leadership of Karna. Drona was a Brahmin, like suta’s brahmins also have no right to wield weapons or live like Kshtriyas. But Drona was so hurt by misbehavior of his friend king Drupada that he vowed to become like king Drupada in status and prove him false. Thats why he took half kingdom of Drupada after vanquishing him through Pandavas. This is also a form of spardha. If karna has no right to compete with Arjuna then Drona should also have not asked Pandavas to bring Drupada as captive in guru dakshina. As shudras are born to serve three higher orders with humility similarly Brahmins are also born to practice non violence, self restraint and freedom from desire of earning wealth and taking revenge (case of lord parashurama is different). Yet Drona could not desist from desire of taking revenge from Drupada. This proves that in Dwapara age Brahmins, Shudras and Kshtriyas and Vaishyas were competitive and tried to overcome each other. When the whole world is steeped in competition how can one blame only karna for his competition with Arjuna.

      Finally I want to say kauravas may have hated the pandavas or Karna might have cometed with Arjuna, after their death Vyasa brings all of them to life for one night in Putra Darshana Parva of M.B. All of them make friendship with Pandavas and rejoice in their encampment near Ganga for whole night. For those who call Karna a demon or a villain let me tell them that after his refusal to Krishna’s proposal of reconciliation with Pandavas Karna asked a boon from Krishna he said “‘I pray to thee, O bull of the Kshatriya race, let not the Kshatriyas, old in learning and old in years, perish miserably, O Janardana, for thy sake. Oh, let this swelling host of Kshatriyas perish by means of weapons on that most sacred of all spots in the three worlds, viz. Kurukshetra, O Kesava. O thou of eyes like lotus-leaves, accomplish on this spot what thou hast in thy mind, so that, O thou of Vrishni’s race, the whole Kshatriya order may attain to heaven. As long, O Janardana, as the hills and the rivers will last, so long will the fame of these achievements last. The Brahmanas will recite this great war of the Bharatas. The fame, O thou of Vrishni’s race, that they achieve in battles is the wealth that Kshatriyas own. O Kesava, bring Kunti’s son (Arjuna) before me for battle, keeping for ever this our discourse a secret, O chastiser of foes.'”

      Regards
      Praveen

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      • i must again commend Riemann for bringing yet another topic of great importance ” spardha ”

        before dwelling on actual topic ……….. i would like to draw an analogy ……….

        music is everywhere ….everyone understands music ……..likes music and discusses music …….

        In olden days music in its pure form was practised …….
        for those who do not know …… music is not just in notes …….. music in its purest form should arise emotions pertinent to the raga sung ……….
        if those emotions do not arise then raga is inefficiently rendered ………………….

        second is the representation of raga with its notes the progress of notes ………….

        ragas have to follow rules ……..when one raga is being sung or composed …..the antinotes in it should never appear ………. people who know ragas get angered when apshruti comes ……

        so people sang notes till a emotion is gathered ……………emotions in humans were complex and details and elaborations were sought …….people rejected cheap emotions …..

        slowly times changed ……………. people lost ineterest in elaborate music sessions and deep knwoledge ……….
        so some relaxation was needed …………………
        slowly classical music gave way to sugam sangeet light classical where raga wraps up quick and only few notes are used ………..
        slowly times changed …………..now people wanted just a kick in the song .. “woopu ” so musicians said why not use anti notes ……..breaking a raaga with deliberate introduction of anti notes became fashionable because it gave a woopu …kick ……….. there should be harkat …….
        Now talking about pure music is crime ……… is your music cool then bazaooo ………. aah dont talk about pure raagas ……….everyone is deaf to music ……..this is era of disco …..jazz why single out KARNA for bad music ……………….
        some day javed akhtar lamented .. there is no soul in lyrics ……………… but this is very man who wrote ” ek do teen as classical lyrics ………… yes those were songs with soul ………..soul to whom ?

        when you change the platform ……….the discussion becomes out of place …………. in the era of bollywood music ….speaking about a flaw in the composition of A R rahman is crime ……. because breaking a raaga is fasionable cool and is called fusion ………………… BUt isnt it wrong ……..so what everybody does iT ……
        then break all rules ………NO SONU nigam gives lecture on how not to sing a fusion song with closed larynx .to a reality show poor guinea pig ………… why the sermon ……….you see …….there has to be some rules …….NOt that pure rule [ Like ARJUN GEETA and Madhvacharya ,] but rules [ like debt …selective dana ..of armour .. ] if follwed makes me a SONU nIGAM and AR Rehman ,,,,,,,but pure classical is boring baba …..why bring pure talk when everyone is tampering ……….see MB is all about tampered characters ………

        SO lets come back to saprdha ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
        Debate here is presumedly on highest platform ……..seeking MOKSHA ……….. [not on impressing Duryodhana or being slave to one’s master ] if parameters are set to sugam sangeet ……and debated then all faulty characters like viod rathod and kunal ganja wala will seem terrific singers …….and Bheemsen joshi a boring artist ……………..

        If we raise our bar …………

        one must learn vidya to his best capacity ……………. [ not to out do someone ] why should we learn to our best capacity because then vidyadevi …….. gives us fruits of our labour ……..ie siddhi ………. why this is necessary …….. to serve society uphold DHARMA and most importantly please GOD KRISHNA …….

        If my goal is KRISHNA .. where is competition ………. but that doiesnt mean I will be Lazy ..and less competent or less equipped …….. every vidya has a set of rules and basic s to follow and practise ,,,,,,if followed perfectly one becomes the best .. one doesn’t becomes the best by hitting boxing bag personifying it as AMREESHPURI or mike tyson ………

        on the other hand if competitive spirit is harboured .. jealousy creeps in …….. because GEETA says success and failure is not in our hands ,,,,,,,

        Vidya and siddhi if vedas is DRAUPADI [ BHARATI devi ] ………. it is not gained by dharma[[ YUDHISTHIR ]…… nor by suneeti [ sahadev ]nor by saundarya [ Nakul ] , nor by being fiercely competent [ KARNA ] nor by lust [ jarasandha ] , nor by brute force [ shalva] it can be won only by deep practise [ abhyasa …. gudakesha savyasachi ] ………………….. only when Gyana bhakti vairagya [ BHEEMA] permits , one need not bother about gainig it either it comes to HIM automatically ……………..

        competitive spirit fails in gaining real knowledge ………………….. true essence …………….

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      • “Drona was a Brahmin, like suta’s brahmins also have no right to wield weapons or live like Kshtriyas. But Drona was so hurt by misbehavior of his friend king Drupada that he vowed to become like king Drupada in status and prove him false. Thats why he took half kingdom of Drupada after vanquishing him through Pandavas. This is also a form of spardha. If karna has no right to compete with Arjuna then Drona should also have not asked Pandavas to bring Drupada as captive in guru dakshina”

        the above observation is faulty ……………. Bramhins if they dont yield weapon then who will teach KARNA ARJUN BHEESHMA their warfare …………….
        Bramhins have perfect right to yield weapon …………….. The examples are many JAMADAGNI ……. PARASHURAMA ………. DRONA ASHWATHTHAMA … KRIPACHARYA …….. PRAHALAD …….. BALI ………………. BANASUR ………………. all these were meritorious Bramhins ……..

        PARASHURAMA GOD himslef as BRAMHANA has shown it so there should not be dispute on the issue ………….
        WHy KARNA should not compete with ARJUN ………………..
        ARJUN was a prince ,………………. when a PRince weilds weapon ……….. He is protected by sevral Soldiers ……….. if an ordinary NON prince ……..has to challenge him ………. He has to first cross many soldiers ……………
        In his own KINGDOM ….. He is granted immunity from competiton because HE is future KING …….. if every citizen appraches him to showcase his takent before him …… the by the time HE is declared most eligible PRINCE He would have either killed all the subjects [ of such a freedom of challenging prince is given to common subjects ] or he himself would have become old devoid of kingship ………. This is serious threat to system of governance ………… [ lets put it in contemporary terms …… a person gets elected ..he is given immunity from electoral process for 5 years ,,,,,,,,suppose intermittently someone comes and challeneges ,.. oh I was on holiday tour .during election …….. actually I am better candidate ,,,,,,,,,,, c’mon lets have one more round just now and see ………. say challenger is allowd …… he loses and yet another comes I was just aware of new rules of challenging the winner ……….. c’mon lets have one more round ……. when will he govern …………. ? so ROYAL IMMUNITY is must ………………… there cannot be competition between Roayals and non royals ….. it disturbs social gaoverning fabric ] ………………………

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  2. Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

    “One thing which really impresses me about Karna that he was able to obtain Hari’s grace as his Guru this by no means is an ordinary achievement. Though his Seva was not nirvikaar but it was also not devoid of merits towards the end Hari blessed him with many boons and said he would be invincible when he follows Dharma selflessly as a warrior.

    Also I guess Dambodbhava comes far behind Kali in Daitya Taratamya and Karna had amsha of Surya Devaru as well tipping the balance in his favor and delineating him from other Asuras. I guess when Asuras want something they pester Bramha or Rudra Devaru but Karna went to Hari himself it’s a bit intriguing. Karna is a composite and non linear character with many shades of grey, he demands a proper understanding to grasp the fine line between bad and worse. Kindly provide a deeper insight.”

    Mr. Anon, you are absolutely right here. Karna is one of the most peculiar yet interesting characters of M.B . He is born of Kunti the mother of Pandavas. So he is half brother of Pandavas. Actually karna has no rivalry with the Pandavas for sake of wealth or Kingdom. How can be one greedy of wealth who himself gave wealth to Brahmins and others every day. Karna is the son of Surya deva. Surya is a very generous diety so is Karna or else no person would risk his own life by donating a formidable divine armour or by promising not to kill those with whom one is supposed to fight. Yet karna did that, on one hand he assured Kunti that as she is a mother of five sons in the eyes of the world he would not kill any pandava except Arjuna. Either Arjuna or Karna. If Arjuna would have died then also Kunti would have been called the mother of five sons with Karna replacing arjuna.

    Regards
    Praveen

    Like

    • Karna had many aveshas ……. whenever one becomes powerful he acted that way …………it is true that HARI graced him ……. because it was Surydeva’s prarabdha of having to undergo such hateful times as a result excess punya that Sugreeva did ………… HARi never lets his devotees down ………. He gives the result of the sins done by his devotees to the demons …… and keeps them untouched by the results ……….. we all ahve Karna in us who makes mistakes and yet we pray LORD ardently ………… we sometimes lament on our failures ……….. feel jealous about winners …….. yet we are devoted to GOD …………
      Just because we are devoted GOD never leaves us ………. he gives the phala of our sins to demons …………..

      Demons go to Bramha or rudra …….. right that is essentially when they have HARI dwesha ……. KARNA did not have HARi dwesha ……… He had many doshas …… that is what we are highlighting ……………….. we must realise these doshas ………. and avoid them ………………

      He represents misleading shastras ……….. whereas ARJUN represents SATSHASTRA …………. there are 21 misleading Shastras …………. MADHVACHARYA cuts down 21 shastras as faulty and efutes them routes them ……………………
      BHEEMSENA routes 21 times KARNA when comes with various ways ……………..
      22 time when he comes riding chariot of PARASHURAMA with a boon from LORD ………….. BHEEMSENA lets him go ,………

      Kushastras can be killed only by deep adhyayana shravan manana and dhyana directed towwards KESHAVA ………if the seven horses of ARJUN ‘ chariot ie mind [ they are white in color and should be clean ] if lagaam of tgis mind in the hands of LORD ……….. then shravan manan dhyana [ ARJUN ] is always protected ……..it wins ……. it is not distracted / threatened by KUSHASTRAS [ KARNA ] …………. except the final battle ARJUN never fights KARNA with KRISHNA as his sarathi …………… so everytime the duel ends with KARNA [ kushastra ] not annihilated totally …………..

      again when Krishna is not the sarathi of mind ……… and if age has taken over ,……….. everything fails ……………. [ like arjun failing with abhirs ] so with age one must retire to woods ,,. if he sticks in life his final aim of spirituality also is abducted …………even small duty is also not possible ………..
      ARJUn is Dhyana yoga …………… KARNA is kushastra [ ADVAITA BAOUDHA charvaka ……….etc etc ]

      Like

      • Dear Sir

        Exhilarating!!! Only Acharya Madhava’s teachings can provide such life defining insights. May we always concentrate on MadhvaShastras and Hari.

        Hari Sarvottam Vayu Jivottamma

        Sincere Pranaams
        Hare Srinivasa.

        Like

      • Dinesh said:

        Dear Chiraan Ji,

        Excellent post!!!

        Like

  3. Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

    “even a ordinary man will rise on his feet if his family is dragged on to the streets and disrobed ] but that day whole sabha was desirous of seeing Draupadi [ her beauty bewitched them even BHEESHMA DRONA ] there is no shying away fo the fact that there was complete kali avesha on that day in sabha ”

    Yeah I agree with you that even an ordinary man would rise when a member of his family is being insulted. But Bhishma and Drona were not ordinary men one of them a life long oath to remain celebate for sake of his father and other was a great brahmin and a formidable warrior. On that day the question was ” If yudhisthira had lost himself and his brothers with all kingdom then how could he have the right to stake Draupadi” This question was asked by Draupadi in the assembly and this question was such that it confused Bhishma and Drona and others that who is right Duryodhana the victor of the game (by foul means), Yudhisthira who after having lost himself had no right to stake others” or Draupadi who was questioning the assembly”

    “but that day whole sabha was desirous of seeing Draupadi [ her beauty bewitched them even BHEESHMA DRONA ] there is no shying away fo the fact that there was complete kali avesha on that day in sabha ”

    Shri Chiranji, do you want to say that a celebate person like Bhishma and revered teacher like Drona who were respected even by lord krishna were infused with a polluted mind that day? I am really shocked how can you one arrive to such a conclusion?

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    • That is what Vyasa says it is not conclusion ………….. everyone fails in dharma at somepoint ……….. even if duryodhan had won there is no tradition to disrobe a woman in aryavarta …….. how can a warrior celebate wish to sit quietly and witness it …..not even a single protest ……..[ was namak debt so important than a granddaugter in law’s respect sheel etc ………… how can a teacxher whose favorite students’ wife being insulted keep quiet and watch …….. MAHABHARATA does not say each of these hung their head ,,,,,, it says they all were glued to the scene ………..forgetting dharma ………………..

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  4. Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

    “So Mr. Pravin Can we say that It is ok for Karna to have ignored the dictums of the Lord, Mother and Guru and yet be qualified as a hero ahead of Arjuna who never did all this adharma ? It is apparent from the “Good heavens” that dharma is definitely not the factor in deciding hero or a villain, in your opinion. I am not sure how will you decide who is hero who is villain, because Karna could not prove it with astras either …. OR could he have done that in absence of dharma… is a matter to be thought about !!!

    Sympathy seems to be the only option left, as Acharya has clearly described how Karna was defeated in the wars by Pandavas”

    May I ask you a question? When Krishna was on the earth Arjuna won each time, he easily defeated great warriors like Bhishma, Drona including Karna. In the Mausala parva it has been mentioned that after krishna’s departure from earth and demise of Dwarka city in the sea, Arjuna was taking wives, children and assets of Yadavas to Indra Prastha for protection. At that robbers from Abhira tribe attacked the caravan, they looted all property and took away the women infront of Arjuna. Though he tried to stop them he couldn’t kill a single robber. All divine astras and archery skills faded from his memory. That day he was not even able to lift the Gandiva. Mr.K the duo of two krishnas (Arjuna and Krishna) is very famous but Krishna is the supreme being and Arjuna is a minute part of the supreme being. His strength depends upon krishna. When krishna was there on earth he infused his energy in Arjuna and Pandavas and they were always victorious. When krishna left the earth Arjuna couldn’t protect the women and property of Krishna’s family even from ordinary robbers. Where was the strength and prowess of Arjuna after departure of Krishna from earth?

    Regards
    Praveen

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    • Shri Pravin – The answer to this question does not conclude who amongst Karna and Arjuna is superior. Neverthless, Acharya has answered this many times while answering people’s queries on this question above as

      “”again when Krishna is not the sarathi of mind ……… and if age has taken over ,……….. everything fails ……………. [ like arjun failing with abhirs ] so with age one must retire to woods ,,. if he sticks in life his final aim of spirituality also is abducted …………even small duty is also not possible ………..
      ARJUn is Dhyana yoga …………… KARNA is kushastra [ ADVAITA BAOUDHA charvaka ……….etc etc ]”

      Not only Arjuna, all the Pandavas felt mightless that day. This does not denote Arjuna’s adharma, but his helplessness with regards to age and wish of the Lord, that it was time for them to relinquish wordly affairs, which was then advised to them by Shri Ved Vyasa.

      It is futile to think that because Shri Krishna was not there with them, they lost. Because for an aparoksha gyani, he can see the lord everywhere. He knows the wish of the Lord and acts as per dharma only. Lord guides him by always being with him.

      Regarding women’s dignity, etc Acharya has clarified this also at some place on this blog, that some of these women had disobeyed and disbelieved Krishna. Is it possible for a woman under the shelter of Krishna to be abducted by anyone ??? Even Draupadidevi in the most vulnerable situation was saved, so what to talk about the women with 5 pandavas. Everyone gets karma phala with regards to the situation and time.

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      • Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

        “Not only Arjuna, all the Pandavas felt mightless that day. This does not denote Arjuna’s adharma, but his helplessness with regards to age and wish of the Lord, that it was time for them to relinquish wordly affairs, which was then advised to them by Shri Ved Vyasa.”

        That’s it what I want to say, no doubt that Arjuna, Pandavas and Draupadi were pious and devoted to Lord Krishna. They are also mighty and brave. But they were able to vanquish great warriors like Bhishma, Karna, Drona and Bhurishrava through grace of Krishna”. So as concerning their own might they cannot be superior to Bhishma and others.

        After Duryodhana is hit by Bhima on his thigh, Yudhisthira and other Pandavas feel bad about it. Krishna consoles them by saying ” Bhisma, Drona, Karna and Bhurishrava were indeed mighty car warriors. No one in the three world’s had to kill them in a fair fight”

        When Lord Krishna himself admits invincibility of Bhisma and Karna then it is childish to argue over it. It is like going against the statement of lord hari for sake of personal opinions.

        Regards
        Praveen

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        • Karna was not invincible beacuse HE was KARNA .. nor because he was surya putra or he had demon in him ,.Nor KARNA was invincible because he had vijay chariot or kavach kundal ………………….. when KRSIHNA says he is invincible there is marma in it ………. and it does not pertain to Karna …… that si the debate ……..
          but KARNA fans have not yet enumerated this fifth factor ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Krsihn ahas many times refered …….Yudhisthir referes ,.. BHEEMSEN referes ……..to this ……. debators never refer …………….

          KARNA as an individual was no opponent at all …………… he was invincible no doubt ,,,but the reason is not KARNA ………………..

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      • “That’s it what I want to say, no doubt that Arjuna, Pandavas and Draupadi were pious and devoted to Lord Krishna. They are also mighty and brave. But they were able to vanquish great warriors like Bhishma, Karna, Drona and Bhurishrava through grace of Krishna”. So as concerning their own might they cannot be superior to Bhishma and others. ”

        It is like saying O look at Kapil dev he got us world cup in 1983, he had lords blessings then and now forgotten to take catches OR wield his bat OR forgot the bowling action ??

        There is never a situation when Jeeva has its own might. The strength of Karma comes from the guidance of bimba roopi paramatma only. So, to think that when Shri Krishna left, Arjuna became powerless needs a revisit to the philosophical understanding. The Lord merely makes Pandavas realize that it is time to move on from physical might and re-evaluate the purpose of stay on earth, since mahabharata is over.

        The guidance now comes in a different form from Shri Ved Vyasa, who is Lord himself. Lord never left them.

        All people get this hint sooner or later as age advances and Pandavas were no exception. A Father who has worked all life retires, when the son takes charge of running the family, mother gives the responsibilities to daughter in law. Steve Waugh had to move on and So did the Clive llyod. Martina Navratilova all have had to move on, as age progresses.

        They all get this hint after atleast one defeat in the area signified. Can we say Lord is not with all of them when age runs over ?

        ————

        “When Lord Krishna himself admits invincibility of Bhisma and Karna then it is childish to argue over it. It is like going against the statement of lord hari for sake of personal opinions.”

        I have also highlighted what Lord mentioned about Karna, on the day of battle with Arjuna when Karna’s wheel was stuck. He recounted several occasions of misconduct and immorality to Karna. Can we not apply your same yardstick there too ? i.e. When Lord krishna himself mentions that Karna was immoral and lacked virtue, why are Karna supporters gathering personal opinions about Karna. ? Why this selective dementia of choosing selective portions of MB and twist it to give Karna a PERSONAL flavour. ?

        Did the Lord at any place say the same immoral part about Arjuna ? Does’nt it seal the fate of this debate, since you mention the Lord’s word to be the final ?

        —-

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      • Dear Sir

        It seems that Karna was a very confused person. He was haunted by many complexes he was plagued by spardha. ‘Arjuna’ epitomized everything Karna always wanted to be and possess. He resented his mother for the fact that he was not able to undergo Kshatriya sanskaar on account of her abandoning him. He forgot that Pritha knew Surya devaru would always look after him. Karna was present in Draupadi Devi’s swayamwara on a deeper level he aspired for everything she symbolized i.e. to be graced by the saar of vedas which Bharathi devi represents.

        He even resented Krishna for always siding with Arjuna He burned with jealousy seeing Hari always gracing the Pandavas. Now Arjuna desired for Hari Sannidhhi more then anything else So Hari himself guided him at every step for same reason Vayu Devaru took him under his wing. If Karna had not been blinded by such severe jealousy things would have been different.

        Arjuna outshone Karna in every aspect since he never gave in to spardha. When Krishna says Karna is invincible, I infer that the marma is that there is no end to spardha and jealousy is the fuel. Hence Arjuna realized the only way to conquer jealousy or spardha was to surrender to Hari and is evident he conquered Karna. Whenever Arjuna wavered from his dharma letting his own convictions and emotions take the control it’s at that time he was the most vulnerable to Karna. Krishna chides him cajoles him and consoles him towards nishkaam karma and sukshma dharma as he was a great Hari bhakta.

        SIncere Pranaams
        Hare Srinivasa.

        Like

  5. Hariprasad Alur said:

    Acharya,

    Sincere Pranams.

    Reading Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya, one gets a true picture of Karna.

    Among the four CHANDALAS [Duryodhana, Karna, Dushyasana & Shakuni], Karna was the worst.

    During the game of dice, Duryodhana had just mentioned that she has to be a dasi, but Karna instigates him to sexually exploit her as she is a dasi and has to be subservient to what ever the master says. He was the one who further insitgates Duryodhana to order the disrobing of Draupadi.

    When Krishna was asked at the end of the war, why he did not step in to avoid the slaughtering of 18 akshohin army, he says, when Draupadi called him while she was being disrobed, HE saved her. He had to payback to all those who were part of it and acted against Dharma.

    On many occasions, Dhrutarastra laments that, the brain behind all the misadventours of his son Duryodhana is Karna.

    Humble Regards
    Hari

    Like

    • Shri Chiranji,

      “Have you ever seen human fighting with NARAYANA and devatas …… its always demons who fight ………..”

      In M.B not only beside karna, even revered persons like Bhishma and Drona fought against Narayana (Krishna) and Devtas (Pandavas). So seeing from your point of view are these two also demons? The greatest specialty of M.B was that many human warriors born during this time were so skilled in warfare that they could even withstand devas and asuras. For this reason lord krishna had to come and exterminate their threatening population.

      Regards
      Praveen

      Like

      • So you have not read MB well ………. after Gandharva tieing Duryodhana ……..and subsequently released by BHEEMA ……. DURyodhan is asured by demons that they will enter BHEESHMA DRONA etc ………… so there were demons who actually fought ….. a ordinary man devta cannot keep quiet seeing awoman being disrobed in front of them …….. [ even a ordinary man will rise on his feet if his family is dragged on to the streets and disrobed ] but that day whole sabha was desirous of seeing Draupadi [ her beauty bewitched them even BHEESHMA DRONA ] there is no shying away fo the fact that there was complete kali avesha on that day in sabha …………………….

        these very avesha makes one fight with NARAYANA …. when afamily memeber is possesed of devil and harms you , you treat him as a devil or family member ?

        And all these in MB were devatas and asuras only …….. ordinary humans cannot fight such a war ……

        Like

    • Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

      Shri Chiranji

      Its interesting to see that Lord Krishna comes and offers Karna to become king of entire world and take command of the Pandavas, the same karna whom you are calling a Chandala. Its interesting to see that a deva like Indra comes to get charity from a Chandala like Karna. Its interesting to see that Kunti devi goes to a chandala like karna and offers him to revive his brotherhood with the Pandavas. Why so?

      Regards
      Praveen

      Like

      • I repeat ………….. when a good lovable family member is possesed of devil ……… the family members cajole him and teach him preach him and plead him to get back to senses …… devil in him makes fun of all the members ……….. but family memebers dont give up before sending him to assylum they make umpteen efforts with ahope of revival ….. that attempt does not make or prove him to be a sane person ………… he is after all devil and remains devil till sanitised …………… that is what I am highlighting ……….. I am highlighting that when possesed of demon KARNA is no great man he is evil only ………..and all the efforts to cajole him going waste only proves my theory ……….. KRISHNA precisely highlights that ………..

        The purpose of MAHABHARAT is only one VISHNU SARVOTTAMA and VAYU JEEVOTTAMA and TARTAMYA ……

        KRISHNA tells opposite things as test /………….. HE asks YUDHISHIR to lie ………….. HE asks KARNA to stick to truth …………

        HE ASKS DURYODHAN to stick to dharma ……………. HE asks DRONA to side with ADHARMA ………………..

        LOOK GOOD people like DRONA aobey Him but stil are confused to fight [ demons enter to completely take over ] YUDHISTHIR hesitates and is chided ….
        ARJUNA hesitates and is chided both when chided get themselves right …………….
        KARNA hesitates and is chided /cajoled by kunti…….. he becomes even more admant ……………………….. [ when kunti asks HE cites duryodhan’s friendship ,,,,, why he left Yudhisthir without imprisoning him ……. karna cites boon to kuti ………. convenience …….twists dharma to his convenience ..What i think is right …….. that is dharma …….. no words of god …… logic …… debt …..affection holds good ,…… today If i can get fame by feeling friendship debt is important so i will forego everything ……………. if i can get fame media eyeball by sticking to mothers promise ,,,,,, to hell with freindship …….. its always me me me ……….. when my chips are down I will plead ARJUN to think dharma …….. when my chips are up I will call draupadi to be disrobed ……….. that is my dhasrma otherwise my debt to friend will be hurt …………. twisting dharma to convenience where there is fame happiness and advantage ………. will not dharma if it is not to my advantage even if KRISHNA says so what …… ] such characters are ample and KRishna is showing it ……….
        BHEEMASEN just obeys ………………………. jeevottama
        ALL this shows tartamya

        Like

        • We must all thank PRAVEEN and his associates and all karna fans ….. for a good debate that brings out so many technical points of spirituality and conduct ……
          BUt all the Karna fans still have not brought out that one particular thing about KArna which pits him stronger vis a vis everyone ……… I amm still surprised how this strong point which tilts debate into their side is ignored even after years of debate ,………..

          debate is stil open with many points in favour of karna not yet explored …………………

          Like

      • Dear Sir

        One thing which really impresses me about Karna that he was able to obtain Hari’s grace as his Guru this by no means is an ordinary achievement. Though his Seva was not nirvikaar but it was also not devoid of merits towards the end Hari blessed him with many boons and said he would be invincible when he follows Dharma selflessly as a warrior.

        Also I guess Dambodbhava comes far behind Kali in Daitya Taratamya and Karna had amsha of Surya Devaru as well tipping the balance in his favor and delineating him from other Asuras. I guess when Asuras want something they pester Bramha or Rudra Devaru but Karna went to Hari himself it’s a bit intriguing. Karna is a composite and non linear character with many shades of grey, he demands a proper understanding to grasp the fine line between bad and worse. Kindly provide a deeper insight.

        Sincere Pranaams
        Hare Srinivasa.

        Like

      • Dear Sir

        You have also mentioned that Narkasur was also there with Karna along with Surya varman Daitya and Suryadevaru. Kindly explain.

        Also I wonder what made Surya Devaru to provide so much support to Surya varman.

        Sincere Pranaams
        Hare Srinivasa.

        Like

    • Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

      Shri Hariprasad

      Its interesting to see that Lord Krishna comes and offers Karna to become king of entire world and take command of the Pandavas, the same karna whom you are calling a Chandala. Its interesting to see that a deva like Indra comes to get charity from a Chandala like Karna. Its interesting to see that Kunti devi goes to a chandala like karna and offers him to revive his brotherhood with the Pandavas. Why so?

      Regards
      Praveen

      Like

  6. Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

    Shri Chiranji!

    You have used this link for refernce

    http://www.guruji.it/mahabharata/files/karna_parva_125-131.html

    The content u displayed is in Italian language. Here is its English Translation:

    “Krishna was to encourage the Pandavas telling a story concerning him.

    “Arjuna, you do not remember, but in a previous life we two were the sages Nara and Narayana and lived peacefully on the Himalayan slopes. One day it passed near our retreat Dambodbhava the king, after a bit of you was born a disagreement that led to fight a fierce battle and, ultimately, you are using the brahmastra slain. Your enemy now is the King reincarnated, and you can still kill using the same weapon. Do not delay, do quickly. ”

    By the grace of the Lord, Arjuna remembered clearly all the events of her past life and history of his enmity with Dambodbhava. Then redoubled his efforts and hard at Karna, putting him in serious trouble”

    My dear friends its really amusing to know that foreign translations are being trusted by Indian concerning facts of Indian culture. How can we believe this text is true. What is its authenticity? This entire content seems to be written in a style that is created in stories for kids. If we compare this content it seems to be written by an author whose aim was to compose the story in easy phrases. On the other hand if we take the version of KM Ganguly we find that every verse of it has been translated from sanskrit sentences that came from mouth if vyasa. In that version the name of Dambodbhava has been mentioned by Parashurama while trying to change mind of Duryodhana to give back kingdom to the Pandavas. The version of KM Ganguly seems more authentic because it displays the style how Ved vyasa dictated the epic.

    KM Ganguly’s version is more authentic in it krishna says to Arjuna “O thou of great might, piercing Karna with a celestial weapon, throw him down.” and “Cut off with thy arrow the head of this enemy of thine, viz., Vrisha, before he succeeds in getting upon his car.” The name of Dambodbhava has not been mentioned here. He was an arrogant king who challenged Nara and Narayana and was defeated. Finally he took their shelter and was forgiven by them. And some people have assumed Dambodbhava to be karna which is just a fiction. Why will an Indian translator like KM Ganguly purposely hide any information related to such an incident? This link is the original translation of words spoken by Vyasa because it depicts his style of making complex sentences.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08091.htm

    Lord Ganesha wrote M.B and Vyasa dictated it. Before starting the task Lord Ganesh had put one condition that Vyasa won’t stop dictating even for a moment. Vyasa was also very clever as he needed time to think he purposely spoke complex sentences with multiple meanings. So Lord ganesh took some time to understand and write them. Meanwhile Vyasa got enough time to frame new sentences.

    I sincerely respect the religious outlook and astrology skills of Shri Chiran. I am a great fan of his concerning astrology. Yet I am amused to see that the team of Mr. Chiran is trusting the translation of a foreign author to prove authenticity of their opinions concerning characters of M.B. They even didn’t try to find out from which Indian book has this content been translated into Italian language. I never imagined that the end of this debate will be so funny and I will be able to see it this way 🙂

    Regards
    Praveen

    Like

    • Hi Praveen

      As far as I know most of the theories, ideas, concepts and knowledge being expounded here by Acharya Chiraan comes from the glorious tradition of Madhavacharya Mahabharath Tatparya Nirnaya (MBTN) is dear and sacred to every Madhava. Tatvavaada or Dvaita school of philosophy is a very illustrious and unique tradition. One needs to be very intelligent, noble and extremely devoted to Hari to be graced by teachings of such an extraordinary lineage of saints.

      With effects of Kali human intellect has diminished very much and today we are in no position to benefit from Acharya Madhava’s Shastras due to lack of sanskrit and inherent fickle mindedness. But in these times also due to Hari’s grace there have been many Saints writing Commentaries and elucidating MadhavaShastras for us. Further we have exceptional people here also encouraging novices to know the Glory of Hari Sarvottamaa and Vayu Jivottamma.

      I guess if you would just explore other sections and writings here you would definitely appreciate Tatvavaada. You yourself have noticed that Astrology needs a lot of intelligence, patience and selflessness. Why do you think one who has achieved these things in one field would not apply the same principle in other fields also. In fact in Madhava sampradaya it is just the other way round. Everyone first tries to assimilate Hari Sarvottamma Vayu Jivoattamma and everything every Vidya every Siddhi and Prosperity is just an outcome of this practice. I have not seen practice of such simple and basic truth anywhere till now. Hope you would kindly give it a consideration and have a look around with a slightly different perspective. We are indeed lucky to chance upon such excellent resources.

      Hari Sarvottamma Vayu Jivottamma!!

      Sincere Regards
      Hare Srinivasa.

      Like

      • Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

        Hello,

        My sincere pranama to all those who have faith in teachings of great Madhavacharya. I also accept that hari is sarvothamma and vayu is jeevotama. One may live without food and water for sometime but cannot live without air for a single moment. There is no doubt that Shri Chiranji is a genius astrologist. I have read his posts about lessons in astrology. I like his style of quoting a story from Puranas, MB and Ramayana to a lesson of Astrology. Yet I am not able to understand why should disciples of Shri Madhvacharya criticize characters of M.B and that too Karna. If you had censured Duryodhana, Dushashana or Shakuni it had been ok. One more thing Karna always considered himself as a slave of Duryodhana so he did according to his bidding, though he knew that Pandavas were right. M.B is a story of weaknesses found in even great persons. Bhishma had the weakness of taking an oath for his father that became the cause of rivalry among future generations. Kunti had weakness of testing a boon given by Durvasa at a wrong time. Yudhisthira had a special liking of playing at dice (though he was not a dice expert), Draupadi has a weakness of putting verbal comments to others, Duryodhana had greed and jealousy, Karna had a weakness to rise in life challenging fate, Drona had a weakness for his son so he became like a Kshatriya to get a good living for his family. All characters in MB were great in themselves yet they had weaknesses which created tragedies in their lives. In M.B no one is flawless except Lord Krishna.

        Regards
        Praveen

        Like

        • quote ”
          Yet I am not able to understand why should disciples of Shri Madhvacharya criticize characters of M.B and that too Karna. If you had censured Duryodhana, Dushashana or Shakuni it had been ok. ‘

          fantastic question …………….

          What is mahabharata ? is it just a story of two warring princely clans ? NO ? why is it revered …………. because it presents to us essence of LIFe …………. so debate between KARNA and ARJUN superiority claim is just not for filling blog space or creating a drawing room discussion …………. it has deep phislosophical meaning ……………..
          why KARNA ?

          MAHABHARATA is journey of SOul …………………

          Who is the SOUL JEEVA in MAHABHARATA ?

          where is the focus in MAHABHARATA ………… ARJUN [ BHEEMASENA is main HERO ] but FOCUS is on ARJUN ……….. Arjun has something to learn in mAHABHARATA ……..ARJUN needed guidance …………….

          It is ARJUN whose chariot is taken command of BY LORD ………..SO ARJU N is the JEEVA SOUL ……………….

          what happens in mahabharata ……….. ARJUN is focus and whole KAURAVA team is in gettinh away from the battlefield or KIll him so that they can capture DHARMA …………….
          iF there is no SOUL in this creation there is no philososphy ,,,,Dharma gyana and existence of sins virtue all MAHABHARATA is waste ……….

          WHo are the ones ARJUN tackles …….. BHEESHMA DRONA ..ASHWATHTHAMA …….. Samsaptakas ,…….. nibatkavach …..JAYADRATH …….and finally KARNA ……..
          of all these BHEESHMA DRONA are his well wishers … except KARNA all are easily tackled ……. KARNA is most diffciult to tackle and is invincible too…..
          thus in a journey of SOUL ARJUN …….. KARNA is most dangerous …………with the death fo KARNA ARJUNA becomes insignificant in war ,,,,,,,,,,,, focus shifts to BHeema and duryodhan ,…….. this domain is not of JEEVAS >……….
          we are all jeevas ………… our domain starts and ends with KARNA ………………so what is KARNA is the debate …………………

          when debators express admiration for KARNA they have LOST the battle of MAHABHARATA ……….even before it started ………… a JEEVA is suppose to fight KARNA ……….. If he admires him …………loves him ……….. and adores him …………then JEEVA can never even start JOURNEY of SOUL ………..

          precisely ARJUN sat in the middle of MAHABHARATA ………….out of disinterest to KILL KARNA BHEESHMA DRONA ………………… KRISHNA gave GEETA to ARJUN ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

          UNDERSTANDING KARNA and harbouring nature to reject KARNA and KILL HIM is GEETA ‘s essence ……………………..

          Like

      • Hi Praveen

        My heartiest good wishes for accepting Hari Sarvottama Vayu Jivottamma !! Questions raised by you have resulted in great insights and have really helped a lot eliciting finer points by Acharya Chiraan, providing encouragement and inciting a positive thought process to seek Hari’s grace.

        Hari Sarvottama Vayu Jivottamma.

        Sincere Regards
        Hare Srinivasa.

        Like

    • http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08091.htm

      The same link given by Shri Pravin contradicts his views presented earlier.

      1. The link mentions how Karna dies.Karna’s trunk falls of at the arrow of the Arjuna. And Shri pravin agrees with swastika above on a fiction story which is not even part of his favourite KM Ganguly.

      2. The greatness of karna is vanquished by Shri Krishna in this translation itself, where Shri Krishna reminds KArna of his adharmic behaviour.

      “”Sanjaya said, ‘Then Vasudeva, stationed on the car, addressed Karna, saying, “By good luck it is, O son of Radha, that thou rememberest virtue! It is generally seen that they that are mean, when they sink into distress, rail at Providence but never at their own misdeeds. Thyself and Suyodhana and Duhshasana and Shakuni, the son of Subala, had caused Draupadi, clad in a single piece of raiment, to be brought into the midst of the assembly. On that occasion, O Karna, this virtue of thine did not manifest itself. When at the assembly Shakuni, an adept in dice, vanquished Kunti’s son Yudhishthira who was unacquainted with it, whither had this virtue of thine gone? When the Kuru king (Duryodhana), acting under thy counsels, treated Bhimasena in that way with the aid of snakes and poisoned food, whither had this virtue of thine then gone? When the period of exile into the woods was over as also the thirteenth year, thou didst not make over to the Pandavas their kingdom. Whither had this virtue of thine then gone? Thou didst set fire to the house of lac at Varanavata for burning to death the sleeping Pandavas. Whither then, O son of Radha, had this virtue of thine gone? Thou laughedest at Krishna while she stood in the midst of the assembly, scantily dressed because in her season and obedient to Duhshasana’s will, whither, then, O Karna, had this virtue of thine gone? When from the apartment reserved for the females innocent Krishna was dragged, thou didst not interfere. Whither, O son of Radha, had this virtue of thine gone? Thyself addressing the princess Draupadi, that lady whose tread is as dignified as that of the elephant, in these words, viz., ‘The Pandavas, O Krishna, are lost. They have sunk into eternal hell. Do thou choose another husband!’ thou lookedest on the scene with delight. Whither then, O Karna, had this virtue of thine gone? Covetous of kingdom and relying on the ruler of the Gandharvas, thou summonedest the Pandavas (to a match of dice). Whither then had this virtue of thine gone? When many mighty car-warriors, encompassing the boy Abhimanyu in battle, slew him, whither had this virtue of thine then gone? If this virtue that thou now invokest was nowhere on those occasions, what is the use then of parching thy palate now, by uttering that word? Thou art now for the practice of virtue, O Suta, but thou shalt not escape with life. Like Nala who was defeated by Pushkara with the aid of dice but who regained his kingdom by prowess, the Pandavas, who are free from cupidity, will recover their kingdom by the prowess of their arms, aided with all their friends. Having slain in battle their powerful foes, they, with the Somakas, will recover their kingdom. The Dhartarashtras will meet with destruction at the hands of those lions among men (viz., the sons of Pandu), that are always protected by virtue!'”

      “Sanjaya continued, ‘Thus addressed, O Bharata, by Vasudeva, Karna hung down his head in shame and gave no answer. With lips quivering in rage, he raised his bow, O Bharata, and, being endued with great energy and prowess, he continued to fight with Partha.

      When KM Ganguly himself says that On Shri Krishna’s address to Karna, he hungs his head down in shame.. then how can he be considered superior. Shri krishna reminds him of not one but many instances where he has been on the side of evil and not bound by virtue, but selectively asks arjuna to be on the side of virtue at this very moment of death.

      Its time Shri Pravin decided whether KM Ganguly is correct OR Mr. Swastik is correct.

      Dambodbhava is mentioned in MBTN. The demon was also named as Sahasrakavacha OR Tanasura.

      Now if KM Ganguly supercedes Shri Madhavacharya, then only Lord help the debators here…!!!

      Like

      • Praveen Anand Nagesham said:

        Hi,

        The version of KM Ganguly is the English translation of that Mahabharata written by Vyasa. Many learned men and scholars may have written about M.B But no version is superior or authentic than that written By Bhagwan Vyasa\

        Regards
        Praveen

        Like

      • Hi

        Rama and Hanumana, Krishna and Bheemsena, Vyasa and Madhavacharya are one and same this is the foundation of this whole blog and of our indulging in this Vaada. Hence Madhavas live by Hari Sarvottamma and Vayu Jivottamma. When this begins to dawn no gimmickry of any Ganguli would seem to hold any water.

        Sincere Regards
        Hare Srinivasa.

        Like

    • Pranaams acharya,

      A couple of times the comments have not showed up. When i try to repost, it shows duplicate comment detected.

      Regards
      K

      Like

    • the sacred text version is KM GANGULY version it is not translation it is compilation ……….

      guruji it is ISKON version …….and original translation of sanskrit version …….. go to sanskrit version of sacred texts and see the words dambhodbhav and english version failing to register it ……

      funny is your acceptance of christian version of sacred texts as authentic and aurobindo isckon version as fake ………….

      google translation has a tool for multiple translation …….. perhaps you are unaware and again with half knowledge represented the as is version without correcting english syntax ………….

      there is only one text in mHABAHRATA that is sanskrit ………. but praveen and karana fans want KM GANGULY version only …………..which has been amply refuted as contamuinated …………..

      italian version is given to show it is universallly translated from original mahabharata without adulteration …….. even childrens book by neela has this version …………… so if sacred chrituian version if it does not ahve does that mean vyasa has not written ? pity the intelligence of debateors

      Like

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